Poll: Likely vs. Unlikely

[Qui-Gon Vodka]

Friendly innocent poll.

[pavonis]

Who is Quinn?

[Qui-Gon Vodka]

Who is Quinn?

ehem... Finn

[Driver]

This poll is full of things that make me mad.

[pavonis]

Dead characters materializing is hilarious.

[Guest]

This poll is full of things that make me mad.

 

Words?

[Driver]

AND THINGS

[D-Ray Kenobi]

I think it's possible that Yoda or Anakin might play a part, but only as voices. I doubt we'd get full on force ghosts.

[pavonis]

Does Yoda need to appear, when Luke is the Yoda of these films?

[Qui-Gon Vodka]

Yoda and Obi-Wan are "more powerful than you can possibly imagine". I can "imagine" a ghost giving advice, and that is a little powerful, but not more powerful than I can imagine. They are consciousnesses that live in the force; the ghosts we have seen are just the avatars they chose. I posit that they can choose to take whatever physical form they like. A ghost is but one form - the form of photons projecting the image of their former bodies. Why wouldn't they be able to take other physical forms, such as protons and electrons, instead of photons? In any case, a whole sequel trilogy without Yoda just feels wrong. He is one of the most iconic characters of all time and there are so many who would like to see him again. He did not "die", he disappeared into the force. I don't think it is preposterous to wonder whether the inverse operation might be possible.

 

I think the most likely of all of these items is that Luke will fall to the dark side and will have to fight Leia. I would be very surprised if this didn't happen.

 

I think it is very likely that Ashoka will be a major character and that Rebels and the sequel trilogy will go back and forth revealing more of her past and her future as the two productions continue.

 

Mace Windu could have very easily survived that fall. I imagine that it is possible, although perhaps unlikely, that they will bring him back. Far weaker Jedi have survived much worse.

[pavonis]

If Luke falls to the dark side, then ROTJ was pointless.

 

If you think the sequel production team really cares what the cartoon production team is doing, then I don't think you realize which part is the tail and which is the dog.

 

Going into these sequels with expectations will lead to disappointment. That was the major problem with the prequels. Nothing GL did was going to live up to the imaginations of the fans. Even if he had been an excellent director and scriptwriter, the expectations were unrealistically high. Now we have a chance to be pleased with the upcoming stories, but expectations about what "should" happen do nothing but set up disappointments.

[Qui-Gon Vodka]

I don't follow how Luke turning to the dark side means ROTJ was pointless. ROTJ is just an episode that is 2/3 of the way into the overall story. There are an infinitude of possible stories that could satisfactorily explain Luke's turn to the dark side in a way that does not negate the points of ROTJ. There are also many which could be very stupid. I think there will absolutely be conflict in the skywalker family and would be disappointed if there wasn't.

 

I do think the sequel production team cares about what the cartoon production team is doing, for the reason that Disney is a strategic company trying to tell a single, cohesive story. They are exploring two time periods in two mediums, which gives them the opportunity to develop characters in the cartoon past in a way that is consistent with or gives additional depth to characters in the future movies.

 

I agree with your points around expectations. I don't have any. I don't have a notion of what "should" happen. I am just curious how likely certain things are in the opinions of my respected fellow nightly members. We will all see what's up come December and I can't wait! Thanks for sharing your thoughts pavonis.

[Qui-Gon Vodka]

I guess that saying I would be disappointed if there isn't conflict in the skywalker family is tantamount to having an expectation. lol

[The Choc]

None of those things are likely. And I don't mean like there is a less than 50% chance. I'm saying there is a less than 1% chance of ONE of those things happening.

[Driver]

I'd except Ewan McGregor as a force ghost just because it would be fun. Beyond that...

[Guest]

Yoda and Obi-Wan are "more powerful than you can possibly imagine". I can "imagine" a ghost giving advice, and that is a little powerful, but not more powerful than I can imagine.

That line was delivered to Darth Vader, not to you. Vader had no reason to possibly imagine Obi-Wan continuing to guide and teach a Jedi, much less Anakin's son, after death. Obi-Wan became a martyr as well as a mentor for Luke, which is something Vader couldn't possibly believe, because he thinks that destruction is the only real power.

 

So it doesn't matter what you can imagine.

[Driver]

I don't follow how Luke turning to the dark side means ROTJ was pointless.

Because the OT was designed and written to be about Luke facing that and moving beyond. The PT is revisionist and retcons it to be about Anakin. but narratively speaking the satisfaction of the end Jedi comes from Luke's triumph.

 

I lose track of what threads I bash on the EU in, but this is why I didn't like the EU-- Luke facing the same things losing is narratively wrong for the character and I hate it.

 

It seems, knock on wood, that the TFA team understands that.

[Qui-Gon Vodka]

None of those things are likely. And I don't mean like there is a less than 50% chance. I'm saying there is a less than 1% chance of ONE of those things happening.

Wow that's quite a claim. Does this mean you would be willing to make a 100:1 bet? I bet a dollar that at least one of these things happens, and if it does, you pay $100. If you're right, I lose $1. In a casino that would be what we call a fair bet with no casino edge. I'm not a betting man so its just a rhetorical question. I think the odds of at least one of those things happening are 90%.

[pavonis]

What exactly is the take-away lesson of Luke's rejecting the dark side in ROTJ? That he has the will and insight to reject the dark side? Or that he can use it and put it away like a weapon? He was very brutal and clearly angry while dueling Vader (after Vader threatened to turn Leia). So did Luke face down the dark side within him and reject it for all time, or decide that it was an effective weapon to wield when appropriate, and then put away when done?

 

People keep saying there's a Story Group that organizes all the tales in the Star Wars Universe now, so that everything that happens is organized and continuous. I don't believe that. You don't aim for a billion-dollar box office by satisfying the hardcore fans with a cameo of Ahsoka Tano in the films. As far as the wider audience is concerned, Ahsoka would be a brand new character. So if the films are going to introduce old characters as new ones, why not just make a new character altogether? The cartoon production team may be in on the film production team's secrets, but I doubt the information goes both ways. I really doubt the Story Group has any power to direct the film production team towards cameos or other easter eggs. We're talking about a billion-dollar franchise that might bump the sales of books, comics and games, but I doubt the films are going to see a bump from coordinating with the books, comics, and games producers. It just doesn't seem realistic.

[Qui-Gon Vodka]

 

Yoda and Obi-Wan are "more powerful than you can possibly imagine". I can "imagine" a ghost giving advice, and that is a little powerful, but not more powerful than I can imagine.

That line was delivered to Darth Vader, not to you. Vader had no reason to possibly imagine Obi-Wan continuing to guide and teach a Jedi, much less Anakin's son, after death. Obi-Wan became a martyr as well as a mentor for Luke, which is something Vader couldn't possibly believe, because he thinks that destruction is the only real power.

 

So it doesn't matter what you can imagine.

 

Fair point dawg, but if The Clone Wars is canon, and I think it is, then Anakin has already seen ghosts of dead Jedi giving advice to living Jedi. In fact he himself was the recipient of such advice. So, as one of the most powerful Sith of all time and no doubt a smart guy, I think it is entirely conceivable that he could imagine the same thing happening to Obi-Wan. In fact, why would he *not* imagine this possibility, having himself directly experienced it? So, when Obi-Wan is talking to Vader, he knows that Vader can imagine ghostly advice, because he knows that Vader experienced this. So I doubt that when he says "more powerful than you can imagine" he is actually referring to a power that he knows Vader cannot only imagine but which he has directly experienced already.

 

Then there is the fact that Lucas kept saying between the releases of episode 2 and 3 that there was more to that line than the audience knew about, and that it would be explained in episode 3. It never was. Perhaps Disney has adopted some of the creator's ideas?

 

We'll see.

[Qui-Gon Vodka]

What exactly is the take-away lesson of Luke's rejecting the dark side in ROTJ? That he has the will and insight to reject the dark side? Or that he can use it and put it away like a weapon? He was very brutal and clearly angry while dueling Vader (after Vader threatened to turn Leia). So did Luke face down the dark side within him and reject it for all time, or decide that it was an effective weapon to wield when appropriate, and then put away when done?

 

People keep saying there's a Story Group that organizes all the tales in the Star Wars Universe now, so that everything that happens is organized and continuous. I don't believe that. You don't aim for a billion-dollar box office by satisfying the hardcore fans with a cameo of Ahsoka Tano in the films. As far as the wider audience is concerned, Ahsoka would be a brand new character. So if the films are going to introduce old characters as new ones, why not just make a new character altogether? The cartoon production team may be in on the film production team's secrets, but I doubt the information goes both ways. I really doubt the Story Group has any power to direct the film production team towards cameos or other easter eggs. We're talking about a billion-dollar franchise that might bump the sales of books, comics and games, but I doubt the films are going to see a bump from coordinating with the books, comics, and games producers. It just doesn't seem realistic.

Do you know any human being who has the capability to reject temptation for all time? The noblest people fall even after the greatest victories, given the right temptation and the passing of time. It doesn't diminish the good they did in the past or render it irrelevant. It is part of a larger story of their life. It can be the same with Luke.

 

Luke lost his aunt and uncle, and then Obi-Wan. The latter came back to him as a ghost. Had he not, who knows what would have become of Luke. Perhaps the loss would be too great. Then he lost his dad. And he lost Yoda. But they were all still there as ghosts. People who identified with him because they had the same connection to the force that he had. Perhaps after episode 6 those ghosts fade away. He feels more and more isolated. After all he has done, there is still a tyrannical power ruling the galaxy. He may have tried to stop them but just didn't have the answers. Perhaps he becomes obsessed with seeking out his former masters, his father, but cannot connect with them and feels abandoned and alone. Perhaps he is tempted to do something that opens him to the dark side in order to make contact with them again. Who knows? In any case, I don't think these things should be so readily dismissed. But maybe you're right. Time will tell.

[Guest]

Nothing Lucas has ever said in his entire life is worth remembering, much less thinking about what may happen or may have happened. The man is, at best, inconsistent to the point of seemingly having dementia.

 

And where are there legit ghosts in the Clone Wars? I'm only finding references to the episodes where the all-powerful beings tried to mess with his head in an attempt to make sense of the stupid "balance to the force" prophecy.

 

Also, the point still stands - Vader is incapable of understanding sacrifice. The Emperor, and Vader, rule through fear and believe that power and violence are the only methods that work.

[Driver]

You're applying human logic and reason to examples of mythic narrative story-telling. The later my reflect on the former, but not in a literal way.

 

Star Wars stories are designed to function a certain way, and be examples of certain things. Imagining the pathos of Breaking Bad and applying it to Star Wars does not compute.

[pavonis]

Star Wars is a simple, good-evil, black-white fairy tale set in space. It's not nearly as narratively complex as real life.

 

That said, if Luke somehow goes dark, they better have a compelling reason for it that arises naturally from the character.

[Qui-Gon Vodka]

Qui-Gon is a legit ghost that appears to Anakin during Mortis and then later he appears to Yoda in season 6. Just stating facts here. Or actually I think he appears to Yoda but not as a projection of his human body like in Mortis but as a ball of light or something IIRC.