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Hero Diner Owner Shouts at Noisy Toddler, Selfish Parents and Weaklings Cry Foul


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Can we now redo this entire thread, replacing screaming kids for barking dogs?

I would say cats for the win but mine likes to sky dive from the drapes onto my legs at 4 am in the morning.

 

RM! Were you and your wife at the IKEA where people got knifed!? It made the local news!

 

This is why I don't have drapes.

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Am I allowed to hate all parties involved? Both crappy parents who don't respect other people's space/life/feeding time as well as business owners who can't find a way to settle things without going b

I believe the standard now is that non-breeders aren't allowed to comment or otherwise have opinions about the behavior of parasites that have escaped the womb. That bars me from making a statement on

What parenting technique justifies allowing a kid to scream for 20-40 minutes in public?

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Guest El Chalupacabra

Actually, my point has been that most people, parents included, are nasty to all children, noisy or not. Our society is always trying to inch toward a state of greater tolerance. Especially for differences that are uncontrollable, e.g. skin color, sexual orientation, mental and physical disabilities, etc. Yet, it's applauded to become increasingly intolerant of small children for expressing themselves. Because why? Simple annoyance?

 

 

There is no evidence of this alleged monolithic societal movement against kids of yours. I think that is all in your head. You are not considering the fact that just a few generations ago, kids were regularly disciplined with spanking, slapping, and even beaten. Kids were also supposed to be seen, not heard. Kids were expected to be silent, and not talk back to adults, and when they did, if an adult observed this, they had a right to tell either the kid or the parent to chill the kid out. And rather than get indignant and tell that adult to eff off, the parent was usually mortified, and apologized to that adult for the bad behavior of their kid.

 

Now, I am not advocating a return to beatings and children being seen as non-persons with no rights, but your assertion that society is shifting towards some sort of Nazi-esque oppression of children, is quite frankly false, and IMHO, you are either exaggerating your point, or you truly have a skewed, biased and narrow world view on this particular topic. If anything, there is a greater shift towards parents not giving a crap about people around them, and letting their kids become more disruptive and disrespectful of everyone else. You, and other posters here may not be examples of this, but I have observed this in public. You can't so much as go to a library and experience silence, anymore. The fact that movie theaters even need to enforce a policy of removing noisy patrons and their noisy children is evidence of people becoming indifferent towards those around them, and teaching their kids to be the same way. This "it takes a village" and kids should be free to express themselves anywhere and in any way they feel so as not to "impede their development" idea is totally selfish on the part of people who want to push their responsibility for their kids onto everyone else, and is a total cop out and excuse for parents being lazy and not properly teaching their kids to be considerate of others.

 

I MADE a choice to not have kids. Why should someone else who had kids, and for whatever reason doesn't want to ensure their kids behave become MY problem?

 

I don't care if you have kids or not. It's totally possible to choose not to have children and NOT be an intolerant prick about it. I guess you could say I just have a problem with intolerant pricks.

 

Likewise, it is totally possible to raise one's kids to be mindful of other peoples' personal space and behave in public, without "impeding their development.' In fact, teaching kids to behave, and teaching them there are consequences when they do not, SHOULD be part of their development. And when parents fail to do this and it bothers other people, then those other people SHOULD have the right to speak up, without those parents being intolerant pricks. And your assertion that people being frustrated because they can't sit down and have a nice meal without being bothered by someone elses' noisy children and that they should just somehow deal with it, violates those people's rights.

 

 

Furthermore, why is it ok to refer to all children as "brats"? That's akin to calling all women "bitches" or all black people "thugs". What's even more ridiculous is people using terms meant to dehumanize children, i.e. spawn and parasite. Why is that ok?!? Again, substitute that with literally ANY other demographic of people!

 

No it is not OK to be abusive, and use terms like parasite, especially directly towards the kid in question. However, your comparison denigrates the struggles people have had with racism and sexism. The word brat simply is a descriptive term for a badly behaved child, and is not a racial or sexist epithet. That is totally hyperbolic of you to make that comparison. I wouldn't advocate some adult stranger yelling at a kid in public calling them a brat, but when talking about that kid to another adult, if the shoe fits...well, if said kid acts like a brat, maybe said kid IS a brat. It depends on the context of how the term is used, whether it is descriptive or pejorative.

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Cerina's point is that it has become common to refer to a kid regardless of behavior or even existence. I've been asked "when are you guys going to start having brats?" before we had our son. It's a default term for kids, and it's offensive. If you don't use it that way, bully for you. Too many people do.

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Wow. As a teacher I have never ever had this happen. No one in my sphere has ever said "When are you going to have brats?" And I live in an area where kids are an expectation of the Hispanic culture. Kids are not referred to as anything but children, kids, students, small people.

 

That said I do have family that does refer to their kid as demon spawn but mostly because he's still a baby and gets hungry during late night hours and cries. But really - that's the parent referring to their own kid and it is a familiar term much like calling the older child "Boogs" because he has boogers during allergy season and both were called Peanut in the womb.

 

In RM's IKEA incident I really think a parent should control their kidlets because they were creating dangerous situations that could cause the kid or others physical harm. Imagine if they bumped into an old lady and she fell and broke her hip or one of them cracked their skulls. It is not the store's responsibility to mind the kids. It is the parents duty. You chose to have kids and social contracts demand you raise them in a responsible way. If you can't handle raising a kid get your tubes tied.

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Wow. As a teacher I have never ever had this happen. No one in my sphere has ever said "When are you going to have brats?" And I live in an area where kids are an expectation of the Hispanic culture. Kids are not referred to as anything but children, kids, students, small people.

I know "anti-child" or "anti-family" attitudes, primarily among whites in America's most progressive cities was a favorite issue of pundits about ten years ago. I don't know if it was a manufactured issue or not, but anecdotally, there is definitely some anti-kid sentiment, even aversion, among the people I know (primarily white and progressive). Basically pity for people who have one or two kids, disgust and scorn for anybody who deliberately has larger families.

 

Hispanic families are exempt from the criticism, ofc; kids are viewed as cute, and larger families don't seem uncommon or judged by the anti-kid whiteys. Have no idea if this is a thing outside of progressive Utopias or not.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

Cerina's point is that it has become common to refer to a kid regardless of behavior or even existence. I've been asked "when are you guys going to start having brats?" before we had our son. It's a default term for kids, and it's offensive. If you don't use it that way, bully for you. Too many people do.

Well, I don't use it that way, but if that is a common term for kids in general (in your area?), then obviously I don't support it, when it is meant in a derogatory (non-joking) way. Unless it's true, of course.

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Chalup, I'm going to try to explain this again since you seem to have completely missed my point. My point has never been parents vs non-parents. I've repeatedly said that, even in the post you quoted. Parents are some of the worst offenders of regarding children as "less than", and their impact is the most prevalent.

 

Children are not respected as autonomous human beings by our society. It's been this way for generations, and, yes, it is getting worse.

 

Children are still regularly spanked/slapped for not behaving, but it is no longer acceptable to outright beat them. However, the line between spankings and beatings can be a hard one to define, and IMHO they're the same thing anyway. Which brings me to my first point. For no other demographic of people is systematic physical assault acceptable in any way or form. Spanking is an action meant to physically hurt another person. I recognize that the intent is to correct certain behavior, but that doesn't change what it is. Even adults need to have behaviors corrected, and we have an extensive legal system designed to do just that. But even there is not acceptable to hit another person if they are not posing a physical threat. Similarly, managers at work are often charged with correcting behaviors in their employees, but again it is not acceptable to hit anyone. Spanking for discipline is only acceptable on children. That's a way that we, as a whole society, view children as different, less than, and not deserving of the same respect we offer others. (Also, it's becoming increasingly unacceptable to hit animals for discipline, but not children.)

 

Also think about the way that people, especially parents, speak to their children. Or, more accurately, yell at their children. Let me make this perfectly clear - children, because they're still growing, developing and learning, need to be corrected and taught discipline. However, so many people choose to do this in a very disrespectful manner (like yelling, hitting, etc.) or they choose not to do this at all. Neither one is respecting the child. Again, let me make that clear - not correcting or teaching your child is disrespectful to that child. It is, essentially, ignorning their needs. As parents, we're charged with the responsibility of ensuring that our children learn how to be good adults. That involves a LOT of work. There's a LOT involved in being a "good" adult, and many people simply choose an easier (for them) path. Shirking this responsibility does more damage to the child than it does to any random stranger who happens upon them in public. So, yes, your anecdotal evidence that parents "letting their kids become more disruptive and disrespectful of everyone else", is further proof that our society is becoming increasingly more disrespectful of children.

 

Furthermore, not once have I suggested that people "just deal with it" when faced with an annoying situation. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly with what Destiny posted about it yesterday. And since I couldn't put it any better than she did, I'm going to post copy it right here for you (but in a spoiler box because it's kinda long).

 

 

 

 

You don't bring children out to public until they absolutely can sit still for 2+ hours

Whoa now. Most adults I encounter can't handle this. (Or the rest of the list for that matter.) I think the real issue is poorly behaved children become poorly behaved adults.

There have been recent discussions elsewhere on the interwebs about how isolating parenting is now, especially for stay-at-home parents. Part of it is attitudes like this, which just strikes me as grumpy old people talking about how in their day, children did not speak until spoken to and they had to walk uphill both ways to school blah blah blah. The other part is that we now live further from families than ever, and modern parents don't have grandma or other family nearby to watch the kids for an hour while you run to the store. Therefore, kids are out and about everywhere because you have no choice but to bring them on errands. The only way my husband and I get to go on a date is to go during lunch while the kids are in daycare. When I was on maternity leave, I didn't even have that option. I finally found a regular babysitter because one of the daycare teachers quit, but I'm still subject to her scheduling whims. She's got a life, too.

To me, it's a matter of trying to understand that no one knows what anyone else is going through, and having a little patience and courtesy for others. The grouchy women I encountered this weekend have no idea what our family's challenges are. They also seem to think they deserve special treatment. Don't want to be around kids because you can't stand them, go to a fancier restaurant. Here's a hint, a bakery that happens to have a sit-down area and you have to bus your own table is probably going to have kids at it. We don't take our kids to the wine bar, we don't take them to the movies, even. At the same time, how can children be expected to learn how to conduct themselves in public if they're shut in all the time? That's the sort of thing that makes them think they can bounce off of walls when they go out, because they do it at home because they aren't getting out.

For the most part, my kids are pretty good when they go out. Ethan really enjoys people watching, usually from the stroller or the carrier. (He's a little unsteady on his feet still, but in a couple more months, he'll probably be able to navigate on his own a little bit.) He's my running buddy because he just likes to sit back and take it in. Quinn gets excited about going to the grocery store, for crying out loud. A lot of times, when we go to a restaurant, we get out some crayons or our phones for some Netflix for Quinn so that she's not so antsy during the wait. Ethan has proven to be a bit more of a challenge because of his vision issues. He's not as preoccupied by toys as Quinn was, probably because he can't see them that well, or he likes to throw them, because he's more tactile and physical, so we have to have several toys and they have to be able to be attached to the high chair by a bungee. He loves food, though, so we usually bring snacks to keep him occupied while we wait for food, and then when he gets his food, he's pretty happy. We have packed up food when he got too rambunctious, but in the case this weekend, we were still waiting for our food. I prefer not to take the kids out to restaurants, but with all the overtime we've been working lately, sometimes cooking at home just doesn't happen.

Some days, you just have a bad day. Don't we all have that? I do see parents who push their kids to go too long or do things that aren't going to be interesting to them. I don't deny that happens. Parents who try to push through naptime so they can "get it done" or want their kid to drop naps too early because it's "inconvenient" drive me nuts. I pretty much avoid going out past 1 PM on weekends because I know the kids are going to be cranky. I don't try to drag my kids to beer festivals or anything like that. We do spend a lot of time at the zoo and parks. Winter is a challenge, though, because the weather is so lousy.

I would much rather see parents trying quietly to calm a grouchy or excited child than screaming at them and causing a further scene. Getting nasty and mean with kids is just more likely to make them cry or scream louder, because they don't understand why someone who loves them and is usually so kind would suddenly turn nasty, even if they are acting out. There's a difference between correcting and discipline. I know what works for my kids, and losing my **** with them does not yield results. But also, if you're an a-hole to me or to my child, I'm not going to do you any favors.

 

 

 

As for the use of derogatory language to refer to children, there are examples all over this thread, yet, I'm the only person to call it out as wrong. Derogatory terms for other demographics of people are in our censors and against the rules of this board. In fact, if someone here were to start using any number of them to refer to whichever group they refer to, they'd be immediately called out publicly, and Pong and I would have been notified to do something about it. But not derogatory terms for children. Because they're children. Using derogatory terms for this is still amusing to some and just simply eyerolling to others, but not considered offensive enough to do anything about. Why the double standard? Because our society is generally accepting of being less respectful to children. It never even occurs to many people to think otherwise.

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Hmm. I know you homeschool. As a teacher I am nothing but respectful to my students and lead by example. So I find this claim we are disrespectful to children very bizarre. I think as a society we bend over backwards to accommodate a students growth. For example awards for everyone. No child fails as we as teachers must make every effort to pass a child.

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No, I've run into the attitude Cerina talks about. Many of my friends are very liberal and progressive, and childless. Even some of my friends who now desire to have kids have in the past expressed opinions about children being polluting parasites. As a teacher, I wouldn't expect that attitude from you, at all. God, I hope not. But at one point in the conversation this weekend, the woman told us she hoped we didn't have any more kids. Not that it was any of her business, but Brad started going on about populating the Earth just to piss her off since it was clear she was totally rude and mean. I think he may have said that if he didn't have tons of kids, she wouldn't have any Social Security to collect. LOL. At this point, things got pretty ugly. But we're done having kids since I'm not willing to play Russian Roulette with our genetics again. We are 2 pretty healthy individuals but somehow Ethan got all the worst of our genes (reflux associated with apnea, strabismus, torticollis as a side effect of strabismus., and I don't know where the hell that cataract came from). I don't have it in me to haul another kid to 2-4 doctor appointments a week on top of working full-time.

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Our educational system is designed and run mostly to work completely opposite of everything we know about child development. How is that respectful?

Also, awarding and passing a student is not necessarily a sign of respect. Especially when it's universal. Making efforts on their behalf is though.

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You can get glares, eye rolls, dirty looks, passive aggressive comments and even directly aggressive comments just for daring to have a kid with you in a public place, even if that kid and parents haven't done a single thing to warrant it. Every parent has experienced this.

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You can get glares, eye rolls, dirty looks, passive aggressive comments and even directly aggressive comments just for daring to have a kid with you in a public place, even if that kid and parents haven't done a single thing to warrant it. Every parent has experienced this.

This is true. We've gotten plenty of dirty looks at the movie theater for taking Noah there. Especially when he was younger. He didn't start talking in movies until this summer, apparently. Thankfully, the only movies he's seen and talked through were at 9 AM, so the theater was fairly empty and everybody was sitting too far from us to hear him.

 

When we flew to Florida with him when he was 2, the man in the seat next to us asked to be moved before we ever even took off, after the heaved a heavy sigh when he Noah. Noah sat on my lap to watch us take off, completely in silent awe of what was happening, then fell asleep for the remainder of the trip. He literally woke up as we were taxiing into the terminal. But hey, we got an extra seat to spread out on. So that was cool.

 

People are often quick to assume the worst about kids. Which, you know, is just another sign of how little regard most people have for children.

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Fine! I apologize for all derogatory remarks aimed at children. Making a man feel like a bigot is an effective way to adjust his behavior!

 

Who's going to start the petition to lower the voting age to 5 years? The poor children are disenfranchised! We must fix that! If kids are really equal to any other demographic, they surely deserve voting rights, too.

 

Furthermore, not once have I suggested that people "just deal with it" when faced with an annoying situation.

Remember #DINKlivesdontmatter? Substitute any other demographic and you'd crucify that poster.
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Okay, I, as a teacher, have never rolled my eyes at parents. I have never heaved a sigh over any kid. And by bending over backwards I say this is what I do for kids: Homework not turned in on time is allowed to be turned in for partial credit. Tutoring is open after school where I help kids who are left behind because of absentee-ism. I work to contact the parent to see what can be done to help at home. School meals are furnished for kids and kids on a breakfast program can come early in the morning and eat in my classroom to avoid stigmatism of being in a food program. Even the "Blessing in a Backpack" program my school works with local charities to let a kid bring home school meals on the weekend is done cautiously and with permission and the bags are loaded secretly during recess by me in their backpacks so no other student knows this kid receives a social program meal for him and his family during the weekend. Additional one on ones have been done by me for my kids for state testing and most of all the classroom rules are posted and followed to teach respect.

 

But I am appropriately a teacher and by choice this is my commitment I give to your child as a pupil in my classroom.

 

Clearly you guys have experienced other types of people.

 

I openly admit though that I hate thoughtless drivers, ***holes who write checks in a quick checkout lane in a grocery store, animal abusers and jerks who can't follow directions who have received a high school diploma. So maybe my issues with human beings and society as a whole are with idiots. And I am not afraid to voice my disdain for these people. Mr Digit the Handpuppet will make an appearance.

 

That does not mean that kids are not respected. About a 100 years ago they were expected to earn money and provide for the family. Thanks to the Industrial Revolution and the fall out from child labor, kids get to go to school at least until high school, get an education and not work until they CHOSE to. They were Social Security before social nets were created and laws went on the books to protect them. In many third world countries kids will make your Nike shoes and shirts or assemble cell phone parts to help support their family. In 'Merica they can chose to go to school for a liberal arts degree that will mean your kid will come home to live with you after college because their degree is useless. But by god they got to get that degree. In Pee Wee football they ALL get trophies.

 

And you as a parent get choices. If you don't like public school you can homeschool. If you are okay with the possibility of your kid having a temper tantrum then by all means take them to the grocery store during nap time and expect them to get through all those aisles of food and not snap. But really the only person that matters is you and your kid and you have to deal with it just as much as I do in the store. As a responsible parent I think most Moms know the best time for trips to the store with their kids and make great choices but people are people and there are jerks out there. Perhaps the person exposing their kids to the possibility of having their actions cause an eye roll are just being too sensitive. Because essentially that kid didn't give a **** when he threw his fit. It was all about him.

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Guest El Chalupacabra
Cerina, said:

Chalup, I'm going to try to explain this again since you seem to have completely missed my point. My point has never been parents vs non-parents. I've repeatedly said that, even in the post you quoted. Parents are some of the worst offenders of regarding children as "less than", and their impact is the most prevalent.

 

Completely missing your point? Really? Seriously, I am not trying to be a jerk here, but when you make statements like the following, it's hard to tell exactly where you are coming from. Not to mention, this statement contradicts your previous statements that follow later:

 

Cerina said:

 

Furthermore, not once have I suggested that people "just deal with it" when faced with an annoying situation. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly with what Destiny posted about it yesterday. And since I couldn't put it any better than she did, I'm going to post copy it right here for you (but in a spoiler box because it's kinda long).

 

Fair enough there, but when you say these things you contradict yourself, and it's hard to see your point....

 

 

Cerina, on 24 Jul 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

Why is that though?

Why does a crying child anger and annoy people rather than cause them to want to care for and soothe the child like we're biologically predisposed to do? Even our cats respond to a crying baby with concern, so why not other humans? Have we really become so callous as a society?

Why is our society so anti-child? How did we go from "it takes a village" to "get this brat away from me"?

 

....Implication being people around a crying child must simply put up with it, and if one doesn't automatically rush over and "soothe" the child, there must be something wrong with that person.

 

 

Cerina, on 08 Aug 2015 - 9:44 PM, said:

People are stupid. People who complain about babies are right there at the top of the list.

 

So, when I am trying to have a good time in public and enjoy the company of my girlfriend, and some family plops down nearby, and their kid cries for 40 minutes, I'M stupid for complaining about it? Really? I work a salary job, meaning that if my boss wants me to work 50 or 60 hours a week without extra pay, and sometimes irregular hours, I have to do it. And to be sure, despite those hours, I am NOT well off. I make enough to pay my bills, and pay for class, but I am NOT by any means, well off. Also, I am taking a class and an internship (which literally is like working a second job), plus I have to fit in time to spend with my girlfriend, and also take care of things and check on my Dad daily. I feel that I am as busy, if not busier than any parent of at least 2 kids without special needs, time schedule wise. So, when I do go out to a restaurant or movie or whatever to unwind, the last thing I want to do is have to put up with someone else's crying children, especially, when the parents are not teaching their kid to act properly in public. That is where I am coming from.

 

 

Cerina, on 09 Aug 2015 - 7:19 PM, said:

#DINKlivesdontmatter

 

Said in jest or not, you don't think that could be offensive to some?

 

Cerina said:

 

 

Children are not respected as autonomous human beings by our society. It's been this way for generations, and, yes, it is getting worse.

 

 

That may be true for some people out there, but you have offered absolutely ZERO evidence that it is getting worse, at least as far as I can tell.

 

Cerina said:

 

As for the use of derogatory language to refer to children, there are examples all over this thread, yet, I'm the only person to call it out as wrong. Derogatory terms for other demographics of people are in our censors and against the rules of this board. In fact, if someone here were to start using any number of them to refer to whichever group they refer to, they'd be immediately called out publicly, and Pong and I would have been notified to do something about it. But not derogatory terms for children. Because they're children. Using derogatory terms for this is still amusing to some and just simply eyerolling to others, but not considered offensive enough to do anything about. Why the double standard? Because our society is generally accepting of being less respectful to children. It never even occurs to many people to think otherwise.

If I used terms to refer to kids that offended you or others here, I apologize. I am not religious, but I try to live by the Golden Rule, because I think it is a good one. Sometimes I fall short of that, so if I have in this case, I apologize. But, by the same token, you can't have it both ways, and claim people are using derogatory terms for children, and then use terms like DINK. I know it is an acronym that stands for "double income no kids," but it is no accident that it also happens to be a derogatory term that means "jerk or nerd." So, you need to consider that is offensive to some people. You might personally believe that people who choose not to have kids have something wrong with them, or maybe not, but there are people who do think that. I, however, think that there is at the very least, something very responsible, if not admirable about someone who makes such a choice when they KNOW they are not cut out to be a parent.

 

Also, you might believe that there is some growing trend of anti-kid attitudes, committed by parents and non parents alike. But I can tell you that as someone who has CHOSEN not to have kids that if there is a bias out there, or there are people out there that are victims of being treated "less than," it really is that society looks down and treats people without children differently, and in many cases, unfairly. Everywhere you go, businesses cater to people bringing their kids in for "family time," offering discounts or what have you to parents. The government, federal and local, offers all kinds of special programs and funding on a multitude of levels for children and parents alike. Special acts like FMLA have been passed to allow for leave for parents (I had several male coworkers both have over 2 months off because their wives had kids).

 

As a single man, I am constantly having to pick up the slack at work for others who have to leave work early, or not come in at all, because of their kids, and though I can't prove it, I feel that sometimes the kid card is played a little too much. Supervisors in general end up heaping extra job duties on people like me for no extra pay because I have "extra time" to do said additional job duties. And then there are the cliques at work. The first words out of some people's mouths who happen to have kids when they first meet you is "so, do you have kids," and when the answer is "no," well, you are treated differently from then on.

 

But what happens when someone like me has (had) parents that are very ill and have to do what I can to help them in every way my schedule allows (including for some years where I had to move back in for a while, to help them both out), and are trying to get through college or working 2 jobs, like I have done in the past, and still try to help out my Dad as much as I can? There are no programs out there for someone like me to help me care for my Dad, until he is destitute and owns nothing.

 

OK I know I got off track there, but my point is that I have reasons for why this is sort of a hot button issue for me. So, if I did say something that might have annoyed you or others here who also have kids, I apologize, but these are the reasons why I feel the way I do about this topic. I personally feel that there is not only a societal bias against people without kids, but people with kids lack the perspective to understand how disruptive and how much they infringe on other people's lives. It's not something they mean to do to be sure (when they are good parents), and that is something I personally can over look. But when there is bad parenting involved, it really is a pet peeve of mine. I hope this all better explains why I think the way I do, and I hope I have not offended anyone here, because that was not my intent.

 

 

 

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Heh. I was just thinking about that point about people with kids who have to leave work early - it is kind of like cigarette smokers of 2010s. They're constantly on the phone or checking texts by their kids. Maybe it is not the kids being respected but the parents feeling some kind of anger in public/work environments concerning their choice to have a family. And it is just being projected on the kids as a slight. Or frustration.

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