Flying the Confederate flag in SC

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

This weekend in South Carolina, they lowered the American and state flags to half mast out of respect to the people shot in the church. However, they didn't dare touch the Confederate flag on the capital grounds. It's actually a state law (from 2000) that they can't lower it for any reason.

Fun fact - the Cconfederate Battle flag was first raised above the South Carolina Capital during the 1960's in opposition to the civil rights movement. It never flew over the capital during the Civil war.

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/19/us/south-carolina-confederate-flag-still-flies/

 

 

(CNN)Even in the wake of overwhelming sadness, even amid charges of horrific crimes, there it was: the Confederate flag flying high above the grounds of the South Carolina Capitol.

Outrageous. Unthinkable. Cruel. Those were the kinds of words being thrown around by people still hurting deeply from what authorities say was a racially motivated slaughter inside Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church.

 

"This was an act of racial terrorism," the president of the NAACP, Cornell Brooks, shouted in Charleston. "That symbol has to come down!"

The fury might have arisen anyway, but it has been whipped to a fever pitch by the fact that while U.S. flags have been lowered, the Confederate battle flag remains high -- even padlocked into place.

Why?

 

It is a matter of state law.

Back in 2000, civil rights activists successfully lobbied to have a much larger Confederate flag removed from the Capitol dome. But there was a compromise. The South Carolina Heritage Act decreed that just about all other tributes to Confederate history would be virtually untouchable. The only way to change anything of that nature -- including the smaller flag that was erected on the State House lawn -- would be to gain the endorsement of two-thirds of lawmakers.

That's not likely here or in any other place where some have said for years that the flag is not about racism; it is about Southern pride and heritage.

The power of flags after the Charleston shooting

 

Even the height of the rebel flag at the state Capitol is mandated in the law -- 30 feet. Not only that, but that flagpole lacks a pulley system, meaning that unless lawmakers vote to take it down, there is only one other position it can fly: all the way up.

 

Lowering the Confederate flag to half-staff wouldn't have pleased civil rights leaders, anyway.

"We cannot have the Confederate flag waving on the grounds of the state Capitol," Brooks said.

In an interview on CNN later in the day, Brooks added that the flag not only "represents bias (and) bigotry," but alienates large swaths of the state's population, which is about 28% black.

 

"We're proud of who we are and where we're from," a pro-Confederate flag protester in Georgia said a few years back, and such sentiments can be readily found anywhere, anytime throughout the South.

Rebel flags fly from dorm room windows, splay across the tailgates of pickups, and spread over the sand in the form of beach towels. In Mississippi, the Confederate flag is part of the official state flag.

And to be sure, there are plenty of Southerners who see the flag as nothing more than an emblem of regional pride; the same way someone from New England might drape a "Don't Tread on Me" flag over a balcony.

 

Interestingly, the original design for a Confederate flag was very much like the U.S. flag. After all, Southerners believed they were the true defenders of the ideals that had fostered the American Revolution.

 

But the similarity of the first Confederate flag to the Union banner was confusing on the battlefield, so changes followed. What we call the Confederate flag today is an amalgam of several designs and was never the official banner of the whole South.

 

Still, none of that persuades critics to accept the argument that this is all about history. Actor Wendell Pierce, best known for his role on The Wire, tweeted: "The Nazis are responsible for the Autobahn & advancing rocket science. Do we fly the Nazi flag to remember that 'heritage?'"

 

It is an old debate, but even top politicians admit it has new resonance following the Charleston killings.

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley said, "I think the state will start talking about that again. We'll see where it goes."

 

And Republican presidential contender, Sen. Lindsey Graham said of his home state, "At the end of the day, it's time for people in South Carolina to revisit that."

 

Black lawmakers in the Palmetto State are vowing to reintroduce legislation to remove the flag from the capital grounds, and perhaps from every official setting. Legislative history suggests their chances for passage are slim.

 

At the White House, officials say President Obama's take on the issue is unchanged: The Confederate flag has a place in America. And that place is in museums.

Maybe times have changed. Just this week, the U.S. Supreme Court said Texas can deny requests for license plates featuring the Confederate flag. But nine other states still allow it on their plates, including South Carolina.

 

So perhaps it is no wonder opponents are coming off the backside of this tragedy not merely railing against what they see as a banner of bigotry, but pushing a symbol of their own -- storming the Internet to post time and again #takeitdownsc.

 

Ah, the Confederate flag argument that comes up every 5 years or so. I savor it when I see extremists on both sides become rabid and try to rip out each others' throats over something ridiculous!

Of course flying the Confederate Battle Flag (the famous one, used by many racists, and symbol of treason against the US) in this day and age is definitely in poor taste, and we all know why it is flown in SC: one part "we ain't gonna let no fedral gubment tell us to take our flag down," one part some politicians in SC really are racist, and two parts pandering to racist voters who support flying it. If it truly was about the "heritage not hate," argument Southerners cling to, then a new flag not resembling the Confederate Battle Flag would have been created long ago to honor fallen confederate soldiers or the South in general, as they claim for flying the Confederate flag. Hell, pick another Confederate flag (there's like a dozen of them that were used, IE the original Stars and Bars flag), that hasn't been widely used by, well, Neo Nazis or the KKK.

 

But as distasteful as it is, and how morally objectionable it is to me to not at least make an exception for taking it down a (or even flying at half mast) for the 9 people murdered in that church, flying the Confederate Battle Flag is as a protected freedom of expression under the First Amendment as burning the US flag is. Or a particular ethnic group flying the flag of their ancestors or home country, or flying the New England flag in New England states, or Tea Partiers with their "Don't Tread On Me" Gadsden flag, or Latino groups flying the United Farm Workers flag or Mexican flag, or black groups who fly Black Panther Party or Nation of Islam flags, or people who fly gay pride flags, or Christians flying their church flag or the Christian Flag,or various protestor groups (both left and right) who fly the US flag upside down. Any one of those groups can and will offend another group with their flag. The First Amendment protects unpopular speech, and some would say that's actually the whole point of it, to begin with.

I'd much rather see a national boycott of SC by the NAACP and businesses, where loss of income forces SC to effect change, than some legal action to compel taking the flag down. Besides, this will give the rest of the world a reason not to vote for Lindsay Graham, and recognize the racists for what they are. It's easier to spot them this way, because they will proudly slap the Confederate flag on anything they can.

[RelentlessMalice]

I have held a very radical stance on this issue for years and I have always believed that those who fly the Confederate flag/battle flag or whatever is a treasonous act and it has no business flying anywhere let alone a state capital.

 

This damn flag should have been banned forever after the civil war and should never be flown again. The Union won and the confederacy lost. To the victor go the spoils.

[Pong Messiah]

some ppl burn or desecrate the american flag as a form of protest and when ppl get bent out of shape over it they say not to get so worked up its just a piece of cloth and a symbol no animals were harmed during the burning of this flag etc

 

yet i can think of at least two flag desecrators who go absolutely bat**** crazy over the sight of a confederate flag anywhere

 

so which is it a piece of cloth or serious bizness it is so hard to tell sometimes

 

i dont get terribly worked up about the confederate flag

 

imo it looks cooler than the american flag but it is kind of like the swastika in that it is tied to so much stupid and unsavory **** and says so many negative things about the person displaying it there is just no way i would want to associate with it

 

i wish every brown homosexual non christian person in america would start appropriating the confederate flag today

 

sometimes groups of ppl who have been oppressed take back language that has been used to oppress them what if historically oppressed ppl appropriated a symbol related to racism

[Justus]

I have held a very radical stance on this issue for years and I have always believed that those who fly the Confederate flag/battle flag or whatever is a treasonous act and it has no business flying anywhere let alone a state capital.

 

This damn flag should have been banned forever after the civil war and should never be flown again. The Union won and the confederacy lost. To the victor go the spoils.

Ultimately, it was a soft defeat, since the former Confedereate states held much power in the century to follow (troubling presidents such as Kennedy and Johnson), while retaining much of its core beliefs sans slavery.

[Obsidian]

 

I have held a very radical stance on this issue for years and I have always believed that those who fly the Confederate flag/battle flag or whatever is a treasonous act and it has no business flying anywhere let alone a state capital.

 

This damn flag should have been banned forever after the civil war and should never be flown again. The Union won and the confederacy lost. To the victor go the spoils.

Ultimately, it was a soft defeat, since the former Confedereate states held much power in the century to follow (troubling presidents such as Kennedy and Johnson), while retaining much of its core beliefs sans slavery.

 

That's the reason why I believe that Reconstruction ended too soon. Or, I should say, the mistake was that it ended at all.

[RelentlessMalice]

No things went to hell with reconstruction in 1877 when the agreement between Florida and and soon to be President Hayes to get the contested electoral college votes. Once the federal troops left the south as part of the agreement things went down hill again. The federal troops should have stayed longer. Jim Crow blew up after that and the rest is racist history. Take that ****ing flag down!

[The Choc]

Flag should not be allowed to be flied by any form of government in this country, however individuals should have the right to display it themselves if they so choose.

[Pong Messiah]

Flag should not be allowed to be flied by any form of government in this country, however individuals should have the right to display it themselves if they so choose.

sounds far too calm and reasoned

 

why arent you freaking out about this

 

suspicious

[The Choc]

I used to be of the opinion to ban it completely but now I don't think the government has the right to do it.

[Driver]

I think flying it is a a sure sign of ignorance, but freedom of expression and anti-censorship and all that. If people want to fly it, they should have the right on their own property/person. But the government should not. American flag, state flag, that's it.

[Tex]

That's the reason why I believe that Reconstruction ended too soon. Or, I should say, the mistake was that it ended at all.

 

Harsh. And, to use the word of the moment, quite ignorant. People down here went through sheer hell after the Civil War, whether they owned slaves or not. If you want to demonize the south for slave labor, it's cool. Just as long as you acknowledge the fact that slavery is as old as dirt and that your ancestors, just like mine, did a lot of horrible **** to a lot of people.

 

Or you could just remain on your high horse. Any chance you can go **** yourself with it?

 

And for the record the rebel flag is stupid and it should be taken down. If for no reason other than the fact that its existence allows dip****s who don't know histiory to spout off and wallow in their own entitlement.

 

Mom doin ok? Always liked her.

[The Kurgan]

I think flying it is a a sure sign of ignorance, but freedom of expression and anti-censorship and all that. If people want to fly it, they should have the right on their own property/person. But the government should not. American flag, state flag, that's it.

This is a tough one, I think. I suppose comparisons to the swastika are perhaps merited. It's one thing to claim freedom of expression and so on, and "banning" flags seems so much like the evils we fought when we fought the powers behind those flags. On the other hand, those flags symbolize the worst enemies America ever fought. Both militarily and ideologically. Like Pong said, they have so much historical baggage that I can't fathom anyone claiming it to be mere 'heritage' or whatever. Try that crap in Germany with the swastika and you get arrested. Heavy handed? Perhaps. But I think a good case can be made for treating the display of either the confederate flag or the swastika as treason, assuming the display is not for educational purposes; in a museum or the like. I don't think it's an easy answer.

[PeacefulMindedJedi]

Y'know, I always found that argument to be incredibly stupid, the one in which any of the Confederate flags are compared to the Nazi flag.

 

The opinion that the Confederates were traitors always kinda made me laugh too.

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

I think flying it is a a sure sign of ignorance, but freedom of expression and anti-censorship and all that. If people want to fly it, they should have the right on their own property/person. But the government should not. American flag, state flag, that's it.

I appreciate when someone flies the Confederate flag because it lets me know to stay the hell away from them.

[RelentlessMalice]

Y'know, I always found that argument to be incredibly stupid, the one in which any of the Confederate flags are compared to the Nazi flag.

 

The opinion that the Confederates were traitors always kinda made me laugh too.

Did they break away from the Union?

 

They broke their allegience to their country.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

 

Y'know, I always found that argument to be incredibly stupid, the one in which any of the Confederate flags are compared to the Nazi flag.

 

The opinion that the Confederates were traitors always kinda made me laugh too.

Did they break away from the Union?

 

They broke their allegience to their country.

 

Comparing the confederate flag to the Nazi flag is a perfect comparison, as it is a flag that symbolizes an extreme political view.

 

What I find amusing is someone who is in the profession of defending the constitution of the United States from enemies foreign and domestic would be confused as to whether states, and people who fought on the side of those states, who engaged in an armed rebellion and fought, killed and even tortured US troops, were traitors to the US government and to the US constitution.

 

 

I used to be of the opinion to ban it completely but now I don't think the government has the right to do it.

 

I agree that people have the right to display the confederate flag. In fact I encourage it, so we can identify who they are.

[Tex]

All things considered, though, it is a pretty cool looking flag. Always found the swastika flag to be pretty cool, too.

 

What is it with white supremacists and their excellent taste in flags?

[Justus]

Y'know, I always found that argument to be incredibly stupid, the one in which any of the Confederate flags are compared to the Nazi flag.

 

The opinion that the Confederates were traitors always kinda made me laugh too.

You would have a point about the comparison if the Con-flag's use was not immediately appropriated as the symbol of various white supremacist movements post Civil War--since early on, they viewed the flag as being the official representation of slavery/racism, etc. Further, it did not help when some of the same organizations purposely raised the Confederate and Nazi flag together at documented meetings/marches, etc. They see the link. Come on, you know the base reason for the comparison (considering its targeted use over time), so how is it "incredibly stupid" as you say?

[The Choc]

What's great is that flag was actually never the flag of the confederacy. That design was part of several official flags of the CSA, it was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia and it was at some point the Navy Jack of the Confederacy. But that actual flag was never really the flag of the CSA.

[monkeygirl]

say WHAT?

[The Choc]

Yeah, it's true. The CSA basically had 3 official flags during its existence.

http://www.usflag.org/confederate.stars.and.bars.html

[Odine]

Forgive me for being the devils advocate here but I'm assuming that PMJ's point was in refrence to the fact that the Nazi Swastika was a flag used by a regeime who's goals included the systematic and total genocide of an ethnic population from the face of the earth. They happened to not succeed. Where as the confederate flag was one that represented a bunch of dicks who wanted slaves and were racist. Similar, but kind of not the same in any way.

[Ms. Spam]

My neighbor has been getting shit for flying his confederate flag. But it's Texas so.

[Burt]

 

Y'know, I always found that argument to be incredibly stupid, the one in which any of the Confederate flags are compared to the Nazi flag.

 

The opinion that the Confederates were traitors always kinda made me laugh too.

Did they break away from the Union?

 

They broke their allegience to their country.

 

Like we broke allegiance to the Crown in 1776? We were founded by traitors. Respectfully, that's a rather narrow perspective you have there.

 

In light of recent legislation in my state, I dug around my family history this month to see how much Native American ancestry I actually have. I was surprised to find it was more than I figured, but the biggest surprise was that my Native American ancestors owned slaves. I also found out that branch of the family split down the middle in 1860. It's easy to judge those people from my pedestal of education and the culmination of progressive movements, but these people weren't inherently evil. You reflect your geography and time. A lot of people in this thread might have signed up for the Nazi party had they been 20-somethings in Nazi Germany.

 

Furthermore, the Florida branch of the family had some interesting things to say about Reconstruction. Imagine the scummiest lawyers on earth coming to your county and screwing you over constantly. Constantly.

 

I don't really care about the flag, I agree that veterans would find it strange that it still flies. It's not their fault white supremacists appropriated the flag in the mid-19th century. Based on that appropriation, I am inclined to agree it doesn't have a place on government buildings. However, I see a lot of narrow-minded judgement in this thread about the South and that time frame in general. Don't get too high and mighty, if you peak behind the curtains you mind find some surprises in your ancestry too.

[Tex]

Forgive me for being the devils advocate here but I'm assuming that PMJ's point was in refrence to the fact that the Nazi Swastika was a flag used by a regeime who's goals included the systematic and total genocide of an ethnic population from the face of the earth

Come on, the Jews kind of deserved it

 

Where as the confederate flag was one that represented a bunch of dicks who wanted slaves and were racist. Similar, but kind of not the same in any way.

The south and the Germans have one thing in common. They encourage white folk to look down on other white folk in a pathetic attempt to alleviate their guilt.

 

Read a book.

 

It's whereas, btw.