Destiny Skywalker Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 She was an art student there and they removed her work from some exhibition, she claimed it was because she was white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeygirl Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I'm now hearing conflicting info on these details so I don't know what to believe. This all got aired because of her NAACP job and they're okay with her, so I feel badly for her in that regard. This really isn't anyone's business. It's just the whole thing about taking the advantages that were offered to people because of the injustice they'd suffered in the past and no matter what she thinks she is, that's not her fight, right? Or IS it? Like if she truly WAS treated a certain way because someone else also believed her to be African-American, is that valid? like socially, integrity-wise and legally, too? I'm also shaking my head over the clip of her being asked "Are you African-American?" and she seems truly confused and says she "doesn't understand" the question. It's one thing to say "It's complicated for me" or to say something like "We're ALL African-Americans as mankind comes from that region, originally" but she really looks just stymied by the (what I think is) pretty simple question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I'm still not getting why she's a villain and Caitlyn Jenner is a hero. If Bruce Jenner wasn't famous, and people just met Caitlyn and were never told that she was born male, would she suddenly be a villain and evil? If so, then it's fame that makes this different. Is it the fact that it's race? If so, why can gender be determined by feeling but not race? Everything I've seen so far seems to come down on the side of begging the question - that is, starting with the assumption that she's a villain and then backtracking to explain why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RelentlessMalice Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Because I guess in the 21st century it is acceptable as a white person to change your gender from a man to woman but never ever pretend to be black. That is like as Robert Downey jr said in tropic thunder "you went full retard. Never go full retard." Oh shit our society is so racist! #realblacklivesmatternotwannabewhitegirlswithidentityissues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NumberSix Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 My only big issue with Rachel Dolezal is her scholarhsip. If that was to be given to an African-American only, she committed fraud. But if her employers didn't care about it in the context of her job, I don't think it's anybody's business.The fully qualified, non-lying, minority applicants who lost out on one-of-a-kind opportunities because of her long-term con might disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeygirl Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Do you think anyone ost out on one-of-a-kind opportunities because of her employment at the NAACP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Do you think anyone ost out on one-of-a-kind opportunities because of her employment at the NAACP? All the people who wanted her position at the NAACP lost out. Of course, anybody in a leadership position is causing others who want that spot to "lose out," though in normal situations, that's simple competition and perfectly fine. It's her history of dishonesty and possible delusion about her background and sue-happy nature that raise questions about the legitimacy of her accomplishments, claims, position, etc. (meaning other, more legitimately qualified people did lose out).. I'm torn, personally. On one hand, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is saying he now identifies as 5'8" and doesn't see the harm in her identifying as black and helping a good cause. That makes me not want to be too harsh on Dolezal. On the other hand, monkeygirl seems to be defending her, so I can't help but feel Dolezal deserves a quick trip to Old Sparky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeygirl Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I'm not defending here-I just think the media are going a little too berserk with this, but I'm not married to my opinions at this point, either. Some of you are bringing up points I hadn't considered so my feelings are still shifting. Seriously, that job could have been an opportunity of magnitude-so I'm backing away from the notion that she didn't hurt anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 MG: I agree that the media is going berserk, though at the same time I understand it, 'cause this is such a "you gotta see it to believe it" story. From the bits and pieces I have read and that interview with her parents, she seems like somebody who grew up in a highly unusual environment who was probably already inclined toward instability. I don't think she's a terrible person so much as a screwed up but adaptable person who was in the right places at the right times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destiny Skywalker Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I think it depends on what the NAACP views their mission as. Is their mission to promote the welfare of black/African-Americans no matter what method? Is their mission to promote the welfare of the people they represent by giving them opportunities that people of the "majority" race have, even if that means they may not have the "best" person in each leadership position? Was she a white woman taking up an important leadership position that would have given a black person the opportunity to network and gain important community organization experience? Or was she a white woman who, despite her own race, feels strongly about the plight of minority people and uses her skills to help that race? There are probably more than 2 sides to the coin, in this case. I know we like to judge villain or hero around here, but I think cases could be made for both. If she was really good at what she did, then does her race matter? That's up the NAACP to decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I'm still not getting why she's a villain and Caitlyn Jenner is a hero. Allow me to go super liberal grad school paper on the question... and feel free to call BS on it afterwards Gender and race are both biological and have cultural constructs built around them, but I think gender is more based on the biologic and race on societal/cultural constructs. There's cross-over for sure-- gender has a role on culture (sup fourth wave feminist movement!) and race certainly has biological markers like skin color. We certainly like to say we live in a patriarchy, but there's only two genders and while the male side has certainly dominated, that's across multiple cultures. No one grows up in an all-female or all-male environment the same way one can grow up "black" for example. I think the other difference is that Jenner was living a lie, but her "identification" with being a woman and transformation was embracing a truth. Where as Dolezal hid the truth to live a lie by co-opting a culture she can CLAIM she identifies with, but ultimately, didn't really experience AND took a position as a mouthpiece that spoke on such things. That's a lot of layers of lies and BS. So Dolezal obscuring facts and lying to be what she "identifies" as, where as Jenner embraced a truth to make her change is where the hero/villain line is for my court of public opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeygirl Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 That's pretty dang insightful. I agree. I had a discussion about this last night with 2 friends who have Masters' (one is working on her PhD) in cultural studies and they had surprising opinions. They'd told me about being in a student group called a Cohort (both are Caucasian) with other women who are white and women of color and they told me that while they, themselves felt qualified to have educated opinions on issues, that the women of color vehemently wouldn't allow them to express freely simply because of their race. So, while they each felt Dolezol may have easily been able to fulfill the wishes of her employers at the NAACP that maybe the time just isn't right yet to have a white person in the role of helping people of color with discrminination issues. They thought the things like scholarships and calling police to claim discrimination crossed the line from "white woman identifying as black and helping in the community" to 'a person with severe issues trying to fit into a community that embraced her". One was horribly physically abused as a child be her parents and swears Rachel's parents are suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 Bruce Jenner really is the perfect poster boy for the tranny thing. He was a clean cut Olympic hero, so praising him for becoming a woman is only natural for the liberal media. What I can't stand is the fact that you can't even goof on the whole thing in a public forum without being demonized as intolerant. The Clint Eastwood thing was a good example. He simply referred to her as "Caitlyn Somebody" and people were so offended that they decided to edit that part out of the show. Really? If you say anything about the guy that isn't 100% supportive it's now offensive? Jerry Seinfeld recently said that he won't do stand up at college campuses because the students are too PC and I can see why. We've lost the ability to laugh at ourselves because people are so thin skinned. People today would rather be angry than be happy. It's a white guilt thing that the media encourages, and I can't believe how bad it's gotten. Case in point, did anyone not laugh at that scene in Airplane about the two black guys who speak jive? Or the sheer ridiculousness of June Cleaver doing the same? Today that would be beyond racist, but back then it was considered a witty observation of cultural differences. I have no doubt that Dolezal is a product of this. She's basically ashamed to be who she is. While the media is right to slam her for it, don't be surprised if she winds up smelling like a rose in the end. All she has to do is emphasize her sympathy for the plight of black people and she'll be Caitlynized as a hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Yeah, I agree Tex.I went on a George Carlin binge a few months ago, and while a lot of his material hasn't aged as well as I'd hoped, he said a lot of things that would be viewed as incredibly offensive today, and it was fascinating what he was able to get away with in the supposedly "uptight" 1970s and '80s. Sometimes I'd cringe at his clearly dated ignorance and awkward delivery, but other times his joke was carried off with good humor and real insight. It was about 30/70 with him in favor of humor and insight. More recently, watched a ton of interviews with Muhammad Ali from the late 1960s to 1981. He would talk at length about things like race-mixing being bad, about the good and bad in American culture (especially as it relates to race), about religion, about... whatever. He was also pretty sexist (even by the standards of his era) and loved to slam black athletes who didn't share or express his views. It was like he wanted to talk about anything but boxing. The guy was totally charming, but had no filter and said things we'd view as omg shocking today... yet people never got the vapors or shouted him down -- actual conversations occurred when he'd say something offensive. For example, in regards to race mixing being bad, he wasn't told he was a horrible person who should be ashamed to be alive and that every bout from here on out was going to be picketed and/or boycotted. He was told (I'm paraphrasing) "Well, I think that is a very sad, limited way of looking at the world" but also asked to elaborate on why he felt the way he did and allowed to continue. This isn't to say he was correct in his opinions, or that interviewers ignored it when he was being racist or sexist (in a notorious mid-1970s Playboy interview, it was pointed out to him that he was speaking and behaving just like the white racists he hated), it was just crazy to see and read people who strongly disagreed who were still able to have civil, even respectful discussions about touchy issues. If a sports icon today was twice as charming and only half as offensive in opinion as Ali, forget "civil, respectful discussions," there'd be no discussion at all beyond the boycott demands and sneaker and sports drink companies trying to figure out how they can most quickly drop his name from their products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 George Carlin was far from ignorant. And he would've had a field day with Bruce Jenner, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 George Carlin was far from ignorant.OK, that is a fair point. Let me retract and rephrase: I don't think George Carlin was an ignorant person, but he was a product of his times and some of the things he said, especially in the 1970s, definitely reflect that. Regarding Jenner, I really wish Carlin was alive to see how he'd treat it. He couldn't stand bigotry, but he also had little patience for political correctness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 That's cute, Pong, but you know as well as I do that he would've lit Caitlyn up. There's just no way around it. The guy wants to be a woman. He deserves a little mockery, especially when you factor in the Kardashion bit. If I was a tranny I certainly wouldn't want him as my champion, but then again those freaks will take whatever they can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 That's cute, Pong, but you know as well as I do that he would've lit Caitlyn up. There's just no way around it. Bullshit. Carlin lit up people up for hypocrisy and moral inconsistency/absurdity. He could be tasteless and insensitive, and was merciless toward stupid behavior, but he never attacked anybody for their immutable traits. Out of career spanning several decades, I can only think of two fairly weak-sauce barbs he made about sexuality: "I knew a transsexual guy whose only ambition is to eat, drink, and be Mary." and a short bit about how it must be hard to be bisexual because it doubles the number of people you want to have sex with and you never know if you are going to wake up wanting a dick in your mouth or not. Yawn. Now, I can see him going after the people tripping over their tits to vapidly praise Jenner as a "hero" while ignoring x, y, and z problems or heroics in the world, but going after Jenner herself? I can't think of anything in his catalog that suggests he would. If you are at all knowledgeable of Carlin's work and personality, I don't see how you can come to any other conclusion unless you are just intent on being a super dicktroll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 Believe it if you want. I think he would've had a field with people pretending to what they're not. Again, factor in the. Kardashion thing. He would've teed off on that shit. You really aren't that bright, are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Yes, I am sure he would have made fun of the "Kardashian thing."No, that doesn't mean he would make fun of somebody's gender identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 Wow. Even George Carlin can be erased from history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms. Spam Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Race-wise The only thing I can think of was that was awkward and verging on ignorant was thing that Isiah Thomas said about Larry Bird in 87 after something that Rodman said. You've never seen backpedaling look so bad. Carlin was a PC-like version comedian in pushing the envelope of comedy. He still made you laugh but depending on the people in the audience you may have laughed the polite laugh or one of those belly chucklers that makes the row of seats you're sitting in sway. The absurdity of the particular situation was given for making a joke. How far you push it can end up leaving you making people uncomfortable. Now to take this back to the basketball reference I made above - people who have a voice that make comments about a prevailing issue of the time should consider their words first. I always felt that Carlin carefully chose the wording of his act and that was a schtick. What is a comedians job but to point out funny bs that society embraces? But to say Bird would be average...among his black peers. So don't be a Thomas. 'Kay. I had more to say that made more sense but I deleted some of this so it makes less sense. Welcome to Spams World. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 George Carlin isn't welcome in Spams world. We get it. Thanks for sparing us the even longer version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms. Spam Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Ass. I think the gist of the rambling point I wanted to make is people in glass houses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 Probably shouldn't? Who wouuld ever want to do that? You might step on a stone and hurt yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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