Revenge of the Sith - Ten Years Later

[The Kurgan]

ROTS was the best of a mediocre lot. The way I saw it, the first two prequil films had wasted so much valuable screen time on novelty CGI filler that when it finally came to getting down to the business of the story, Anakin's fall from grace (and certainly Christensen's portrayal thereof) came across as contrived and rushed. Other issues raised in this thread: Padme's likewise contrived and forced death (the tragedy could have been heightened had Anakin actually killed her outright), Palpatine's make up and overall visage and, of course, the acting and dialogue in general have worn on me. While I did quite like the film upon release, I find it no less unwatchable than the first two prequils now. Some good scenes, but I can't remember the last time I sat through it beginning to end.

If there's any true genius to the Star Wars franchise, it's the manner in which the film saga itself became a sort of metaphorical expression of what actually happened to its central character. When ANH came out in '77, a central theme was that of the struggle of the human spirit against the machine; a theme Lucas also explored in THX 1138. Star Wars was originally about the restoration of mythological motifs (which, for a thousand generations, were central to man's expression of his self and identity) to the story telling tradition - and indeed the overall world view - of the western world, which faded away over the course of the modern industrial era. The dark times - the Empire. Luke Skywalker was a sort of author/director avatar (Luke = Lucas. Get it?) in this regard.

 

But George Lucas grew too proud of the technological terror he had created. His approach to film making and the resulting products became more machine than man, twisted and evil. The erosion of the human side of film production - acting, dialogue, theme and so forth, in favor of its more technical aspects in the prequil trilogy could be seen as a brilliant metaphor for Anakin's own comparable transformation (though most certainly not intended in that way by Lucas as he made them). And yet Star Wars did succeed, to some extent, in Lucas's original intent. Its popularity and place in late 20th/early 21st century popular culture are, I think, due to its adaptation of timeless archetypal motifs to more modern forms of story telling - restoring balance to the force, as it were.

[ShadowDog]

Good points.

 

Yeah, I've always thought saying Revenge was "the best of the prequels" was like saying "Of the three times I got smashed in the junk with a baseball bat, the third time was the least painful."

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

This may only blow the mind of those of us that are old enough to have grown up with the OT... but the time between Return of the Jedi and Phantom Menace is equal to the time between The Phantom Menace to Force Awakens.

On related note, Ewoks: The Battle for Endor is 30 years old this year. Squee!

[Stevil]

I still think ROTS is the worst of the lot. I remember going the cinema with my wife to watch it and having an feeling of great sadness. Not because of the story but because I thought it would be the last ever Star Wars.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

Even worse than the Ewok movies? That's harsh.

[Stevil]

I love the Ewok movies.

[Good God a Bear]

That explains a lot

[Justus]

I don't need that to feel old. I saw Ep IV in the theaters when it just said 'Star Wars' on the scroll and not Episode IV: A New Hope

You are not kidding. I remember when sci-fi fans and journalists still had serious doubts about a guy best known for American Graffiti doing a sci-fi movie.

[The Human Torch]

Probably partly fueled by my insufferable optimism, I still feel TPM is the best prequel both technically and as a Star Wars story. Which isn't to say it's without faults. I think the prequels got worse with each film. I don't have an issue with the overall story arc, for me the issues arise with what gets focused on, what doesn't and then how it is; Galactic Politics feel like the A Story while Emotional Issues feel like the tacked on B Story. I feel George's desire to make his galaxy bigger drowned out the reason why he wanted to be in that galaxy, which then tragically causes a disconnect to the characters*. I suppose it's ironic that the more we see of the galaxy the less we feel like we're in that galaxy.

 

In short: I feel the Prequels problems can be summed up in one scene, which is Jedi Lava Hopping Battle.

 

*eg. Pod Racing. The scene plays by making the win of the race the drama. That's hollow drama. The scene, while also perhaps too long, could have focused on Anakin's innate talent with the Force. This is implied, but it's the B story to the race. Reforming that scene to focus on Anakin doing things like using the Force to pull out of reach detached wires back into place instead of if he'll win the race still dazzles us with action but makes it a character scene not a false drama event.

[Driver]

When do we stop making excuses and rationalizing for the PT and just move on from the COLD HARD FACT they are just bad movies?

[Zerimar Nyliram]

I can sympathize with Torch's position, and can even say that I feel that way myself in part. I think The Phantom Menace bore the Star Wars spirit most among the prequels, which eroded as they went on. However, I also feel that the story, while moving away from the proper spirit, also matured with each film's release. The Phantom Menace seems like a kids' movie while Revenge of the Sith deals more with more mature issues. Attack of the Clones sits somewhere in between, with a whiny Anakin crying about how his big bro won't let him do what he wants.

[The Human Torch]

Driver, I think it's universally accepted the prequels were bad. I think how bad and why is the reason the discussion continually lives. It's like being a Monday Morning Quarterback after watching your team perform horribly the day before, win or loss. Nothing you say really matters, it just allows you to fold that suck into your fandom and move on to Cincinnati.

[Ryn]

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

Driver, I think it's universally accepted the prequels were bad. I think how bad and why is the reason the discussion continually lives. It's like being a Monday Morning Quarterback after watching your team perform horribly the day before, win or loss. Nothing you say really matters, it just allows you to fold that suck into your fandom and move on to Cincinnati.

Universally accepted? I didn't get THAT memo.

 

A disappointment compared to OT? Sure. Bad? Not so much.

[Ms. Spam]

Okay. So a few Spam thoughts on RotS:

• I got to finally see the movie in what I hoped would be an empty movie theater shortly after school ended for the year. I was going to a Matinee and when I sat down I had the theater to myself. I'd been secretly reading the board but trying not to actively participate because I didn't want to spoil it. I had not seen the Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones in the theater and had waited until Return of the Sith came out to binge watch the three together - watching the two first ones on DVD the night before and finally getting to see the big end in the theater. I believe RotS was the best of the lot at the time. I have to admit my favorite character was Obi-Wan and so therefore I really was focusing all starry-eyed on that one character.
• Recently I went to a reunion of sorts and during the table conversation I brought up the new movie and my best friend from high school is looking forward to it but her brother had the most interesting reaction that made me pause and think. He stated inequivocally that he hated the trilogy for PM, AotC, and RotS but will always love the original first three not because of effects or plot but because Anakin was such a douchebag poorly written character. He felt bad for the actor that had to play Anakin because essentially this three part series was about the character and it was just trite cliched crap with CGI and good - not great - battles and action. While the originals were about Luke and growing into the force, Anakins story was how he got jerked around by all these people and then just becomes Vader.
• I will always have this movie colored by my weird experience in the movie theater concerning a strange guy who sat next to me in an empty movie theater and tried to grope me. This has nothing to do with the movie but man, there are a lot of creepy people in this world.
• I think that Lucas brought about blockbusters and so we owe him something for at least giving us something to look forward to every summer. He and Speilberg changed the way we anticipate movies and pop culture as a whole. I have no shame in admitting that I read comics or dressed up in costumes. But Lucas sucks at really fulfilling a story line to a satisfactory ending and he should just let others who are better at telling a story do things because Empire Strikes Back is the best of the lot so far.

[The Human Torch]

 

 

Driver, I think it's universally accepted the prequels were bad. I think how bad and why is the reason the discussion continually lives. It's like being a Monday Morning Quarterback after watching your team perform horribly the day before, win or loss. Nothing you say really matters, it just allows you to fold that suck into your fandom and move on to Cincinnati.

Universally accepted? I didn't get THAT memo.

 

A disappointment compared to OT? Sure. Bad? Not so much.

Relative to the OT. Disappointment. Bad. Basically a semantic argument. We could debate the terms forever. :-)

[Driver]

NO. THEY ARE BAD. THE OPPOSITE OF GOOD.

 

On their own merit, if they were original movies, no one would like them. The only love they get is because they are related to a few previously groundbreaking films.

 

I truly think the number of people who like the PT that are not uber Star Wars fans, or were kids when they came out is very very few.

[Stevil]

NO. THEY ARE BAD. THE OPPOSITE OF GOOD.

 

On their own merit, if they were original movies, no one would like them. The only love they get is because they are related to a few previously groundbreaking films.

 

I truly think the number of people who like the PT that are not uber Star Wars fans, or were kids when they came out is very very few.

LoL man that's so presumtious and elitist.

 

Loads of kids love those films and actually casual fans don't mind them. It's more the super snob fans who hate them tbh. The rest really don't care that much. I've said before you only have to look at DVD sales and TV ratings to see that your statements are false. People still watch these films with a greater regularity than many other franchises.

[Driver]

I've NEVER met an average adult person who liked the PT. it's only kids, people who saw them as kids and fans.

 

I'm not trying to sound elitist or pretentious, it's always an uphill battle to convince who people like Star Wars that the real world disliked those movies.

[Odine]

Man I gotta back Driver on that. The only people in real life that I know who really like the prequels are my 7 year old niece and 5 year old nephew. And thats only cause its easy to watch, brightly colored and moves at a quick pace. I don't know anyone other than Star Wars fans who think the prequels are films with merit in their own right. If you take the mask off and look upon the prequels with your own eyes, its pretty plain. They are just BAD movies. Pretty much in every way except for artistic design. I mean.. even that they don't feel like the OT but that is beside the point... the art direction is about the only decent bit of the PT.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

Wait a minute. All I am saying is that the PT films aren't something I hate. The way I judge a movie as not being irredeemably bad is pretty simple: if I am channel surfing, and I land on said movie, if after a couple minutes I am still watching and watch it to the end no matter how many times I've seen it, then it CAN'T be defined as bad. The PT films fall under that.

 

I've NEVER met an average adult person who liked the PT. it's only kids, people who saw them as kids and fans.

I'm not trying to sound elitist or pretentious, it's always an uphill battle to convince people like Star Wars that the real world disliked those movies.

Did you ever stop to consider that if it is always an uphill battle for you, that maybe you aren't as in tune with the "real world" as you think? I'm not sure what you actually mean by "real world," though I have an idea of what you mean, and if I am correct, that IS unintentionally elitist of you. By the very virtue of your profession, your opinion is biased from the start.

[3 & 6 years to go...]

Ummm.... I liked them.

[Driver]

I was waiting for you Harry, I know you do. I thought of you when I said the list was small

 

And Chalup-- I don't mean the entertainment history, I mean any conversation where the PT comes up that isn't with fans. I'm not saying it's all inclusive of the world, but literally, the only place I see people who don't hate the PT is nightly.

 

I've made this argument before. last time I walked down the hall in my office (my old day job that was not movie related) and asked everyone on my floor how they felt about any PT movie. everyone had seen at least one and the best response I got was "it was okay I guess." most people laughed and said they were terrible.

 

But don't take my word for it, ask around. I'd be shocked if you could any non-SW fan to say any of them were good or better.

[Ryn]

NO. THEY ARE BAD. THE OPPOSITE OF GOOD.

 

On their own merit, if they were original movies, no one would like them. The only love they get is because they are related to a few previously groundbreaking films.

 

I truly think the number of people who like the PT that are not uber Star Wars fans, or were kids when they came out is very very few.

Tim, can I have a word with you in my office?

[3 & 6 years to go...]

I was waiting for you Harry, I know you do. I thought of you when I said the list was small

 

And Chalup-- I don't mean the entertainment history, I mean any conversation where the PT comes up that isn't with fans. I'm not saying it's all inclusive of the world, but literally, the only place I see people who don't hate the PT is nightly.

 

I've made this argument before. last time I walked down the hall in my office (my old day job that was not movie related) and asked everyone on my floor how they felt about any PT movie. everyone had seen at least one and the best response I got was "it was okay I guess." most people laughed and said they were terrible.

 

But don't take my word for it, ask around. I'd be shocked if you could any non-SW fan to say any of them were good or better.

Yes, the list is small. Everywhere I read, whether it is fans or critics, these movies get nothing but disdain. I see where people are coming from with their complaints, but I just don't let that bother me.