Why Doesn't Nightly Care About Baltimore?

[Obsidian]

These kinds of problems have been going on in Baltimore for decades, and nothing has been done about them. Finally, people can no longer ignore it. It's the chickens coming home to roost, so to speak.

[Guest]

I don't believe in the concept of white privilege but Jesus Christ I'm starting to see how the term came about

I suggest you read the book Outliers. It has nothing to do with white privilege, but perhaps gives the best explanation of how such a thing would exist.

[The Kurgan]

I don't believe in the concept of white privilege but Jesus Christ I'm starting to see how the term came about

White (or male or straight, etc) privilege are concepts that have been abused in academic discourse and particularly on the internet. The guilt trips, the p!ssing contests over who's more oppressed or who's that much more enlightened than thou, using 'privilege' as a pretext for simply hand waving arguments people don't like. On and on. HOWEVER, there are still advantages that accrue from having white skin rather than black skin, all other things being equal.

[Ms. Spam]

Some points:

 

• That Mom who hit her kid wasn't parenting and in fact just adds to the problem because she teaches that acting all mad and beating something is the best way to express yourself and your fears. She wasn't trying to stop her kid from rioting because it was wrong. She was trying to stop her kid from being arrested by the police in Baltimore - by beating him. Everytime I see that meme or someone post about it at Facebook I just want to scream. That woman spent a lot of money on nails and hair extensions and not much on parenting time. Can I get an "ah-men", Restless Malice?
• Historically Baltimore has had issues for quite a while. Neighborhood history and relations with the police has never been great. These people are angry and all they really know is that expression through violence. Fergeson MO has some interesting history concerning the way neighborhoods and public policy early in the 50s shaped poor peoples ideas of about government control and help. Trust in the police and government agencies is almost non-existent. But because opportunities are not there people are dependent on the help of housing and welfare. Clearly it is a cycle that has to be broken but how do you do that when so many people can only turn to the thug life culture they use to rail against the man? What's worse than what happened in Fergeson is that this guy in Baltimore died differently. He didn't die by a scared white guy with a gun. He died in a much more different way that shows a horrible disrespect for human life by the police.
• I am glad they brought up the six men on murder charges but can you imagine if they are acquitted?

[The Human Torch]

We all spend money on things, it seems unfair to judge that mom based on what she appears to spend money on. As for her beating her young adult child, regardless of the valid logic against curbing violence via violence her emotional state is understandable and I think I would do the same in that moment. As for the young man looting as evidence of his mother lacking ability as a parent, that is circumstantial. Numerous variables, unrelated to his parents, could exist to bring that young man into that moment.

 

Clarification; It is 6 officers being charged. However it is 5 males, 1 female. Various racial backgrounds.

[Good God a Bear]

I'm going to refrain from saying really negative things about someone in this thread but I will say this. People who don't have kids shouldn't be judging the parenting of people who do. They need to shut the fuck up.

[RelentlessMalice]

There is an old saying that fits these events as of late.

 

You cannot polish a turd!

 

If you have generational poverty as well as generational criminals in families and they lack education,good role models, mothers and fathers, drug and alcohol abuse then what you get is the same crap coming out of these neighrborhoods over and over again. You end up having kids having and raising kids.

 

Of course the police may not value a humans life in these areas. They see them as just another good thing drug dealer. I imagine some families have been busted by the same police officers before. I bet some officers know some of these folks by first name basis.

 

I cannot show compassion or sympathy for people who have decided to become violent and go around breaking the law and looting. You will never win over the hearts and minds of honest law abiding citizens.

 

You cannot respect lives in a area that already does not respect human life to begin with. Imagine how many violent crime scenes the police work daily in the area.

 

I think the 6 officers charged is warrented and it was going to happen and there was no need for rioting and looting.

 

Non violence resistance works best.

[Ms. Spam]

We all spend money on things, it seems unfair to judge that mom based on what she appears to spend money on. As for her beating her young adult child, regardless of the valid logic against curbing violence via violence her emotional state is understandable and I think I would do the same in that moment. As for the young man looting as evidence of his mother lacking ability as a parent, that is circumstantial. Numerous variables, unrelated to his parents, could exist to bring that young man into that moment.

 

Clarification; It is 6 officers being charged. However it is 5 males, 1 female. Various racial backgrounds.

Torch! You are correct good sir. And I was being a little more than flip. So thanks for busting me. But something saddens me about that video and its posting by white people I know on FB of a woman beating her kid during a protest/riot. That Mom recognized her kid and that beating around his head and the pulling push tug of war felt bad to me. Not from a kid should never be spanked perspective because I think as a parent you should be able spank your kid but there was a gleeful way that some people posted it on FB and also she was aiming for his head.

[Ms. Spam]

I'm going to refrain from saying really negative things about someone in this thread but I will say this. People who don't have kids shouldn't be judging the parenting of people who do. They need to shut the **** up.

I teach the kids of parents who beat their kids. It's not something I would take lightly or say judgementally in public as a teacher. So if you're telling me to STFU my reaction is meh. I understand she was afraid for her kid, that is possibly getting hurt or arrested but also not wanting him to destroy property. But if their answer to violence is violence how does the cycle get broken?

[Obsidian]

Non Violent resistance is great. When people listen. Sometimes they don't. What then? Send a strongly worded letter? When decades of asking peacefully for someone to address your grievances are met with a turned head and a deaf ear, what other option are you left with? How much are you supposed to take?

 

It's quite hypocritical for people who live in a nation that was FOUNDED by violence to lecture people about non-violence. Not just the revolution, but the Boston Tea Party (which caused over a million dollars in damages. In TODAY'S money.), and dozens of riots that occurred throughout the colonies. We as Americans are taught so little about our own history. We are not taught about the disenfranchised colonists who stormed the estates of colonial authorities and forced them to step down under threat of death to themselves and their families. We are not taught about the violent carnage that preceeded the revolution. Maybe you think the colonials should have just asked nicely? Oh, wait. They did. The King ignored them. Repeatedly. For decades. Violence became an inevitability because of the monarch's intransigence over the colonist's grievances.

 

Emperor Franz Joseph of Austria-Hungary ignored his people's cries for freedom for decades. Until finally, a group of young Serbians felt they had no choice but to send a message written in blood. The emperor's nephew and heir, Franz Ferdinand was assassinated, and the world plunged into war. The empire collapsed as a result. If only the Emperor had not turned a deaf ear to his people's suffering....

 

A lesson from history. We ignore the disenfranchised, the oppressed, and the downtrodden at our own peril.

 

I'll leave you with one more Dr. King quote, also from "A Letter from a Birmingham Jail". I think this applies to everyone here:

 

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

 

[pavonis]

There is an old saying that fits these events as of late.

 

You cannot polish a turd!

 

Not true. You can. Mythbusters did it.

[Pong Messiah]

Good post, Obs.

 

A counter argument I've heard to the Tea Party historical example is that it was tightly focused and designed to send a clear political message, yada yada, and that if the rioters wanted to be more "revolutionary," the property damage would be focused in the same way -- on police stations, predatory lenders, liquor stores, etc...

 

Probably something of a fair point that the destruction isn't focused enough to be a real political statement (though I think directly focusing on police property could be disastrously bloody), but even so: if people beyond your usual anarchists are angry enough to riot and you want to solve the problem, maybe you should try to figure out why, look at the rioters as fellow human beings, and work from there, rather than comments about polishing turds.

 

IMO, poverty and race (which are often intertwined) are the most complex social issues facing the U.S. and many other parts of the world, and sadly, too tied up in ideology, emotion, and cash for our intellectual/political class to have an honest discussion about atm.

[Obsidian]

Good post, Obs.

 

A counter argument I've heard to the Tea Party historical example is that it was tightly focused and designed to send a clear political message, yada yada, and that if the rioters wanted to be more "revolutionary," the property damage would be focused in the same way -- on police stations, predatory lenders, liquor stores, etc...

 

Probably something of a fair point that the destruction isn't focused enough to be a real political statement (though I think directly focusing on police property could be disastrously bloody), but even so: if people beyond your usual anarchists are angry enough to riot and you want to solve the problem, maybe you should try to figure out why, look at the rioters as fellow human beings, and work from there, rather than comments about polishing turds.

 

IMO, poverty and race (which are often intertwined) are the most complex social issues facing the U.S. and many other parts of the world, and sadly, too tied up in ideology, emotion, and cash for our intellectual/political class to have an honest discussion about atm.

The problem is, people like Pigfeet are acting like this is just because of Freddy Grey's death. It's not. Grey's death was merely the catalyst. It was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. It was the symptom of much larger social and economic problems that have been going on in Baltimore (and the nation as a whole) for decades. Problems which the existing power structure ignored. Which the police, the mayor, the governor, and all those in authority refused to deal with or address for many years. The pleas of the disenfranchised were routinely and systematically disregarded.

 

What we are dealing with is people who have been asking peacefully for years, many of them for longer than I've been alive, for society and the authorities to listen to them without success. They are people without a voice, who's pleas and screams for help have gone willfully unheard by those in power. And as such, they are left with no other way to communicate their suffering than through violence and destruction. Because it is the only thing that people will pay attention to now.

 

If we want to condemn anyone, condemn the police. The city hall. The governor's office. The Federal government. Society as a whole. Condemn all of those who had the power to change things, to do something to address the grievances of the downtrodden and disenfranchised BEFORE the riots, and who chose not to.

[monkeygirl]

There is an old saying that fits these events as of late.

 

You cannot polish a turd!

 

If you have generational poverty as well as generational criminals in families and they lack education,good role models, mothers and fathers, drug and alcohol abuse then what you get is the same crap coming out of these neighrborhoods over and over again. You end up having kids having and raising kids.

 

Of course the police may not value a humans life in these areas. They see them as just another good thing drug dealer. I imagine some families have been busted by the same police officers before. I bet some officers know some of these folks by first name basis.

 

I cannot show compassion or sympathy for people who have decided to become violent and go around breaking the law and looting. You will never win over the hearts and minds of honest law abiding citizens.

 

You cannot respect lives in a area that already does not respect human life to begin with. Imagine how many violent crime scenes the police work daily in the area.

 

I think the 6 officers charged is warrented and it was going to happen and there was no need for rioting and looting.

 

Non violence resistance works best.

 

You remind me of Paratech taslking about rape in Africa.

 

Nobody just 'decides to get violent'. Have you ever felt SO beaten down that rage seemed not only like a good idea, but maybe the ONLY way you think you could get your voice heard?

 

I'm not talking about rich kid professional anarchists, but the real oppressed. Chances are you haven't-neither have I. And this is precisely why we're not fit to judge others who do so harshly. I'm not advocating allowing arson and looting-I'm suggesting that having compassion and sympathy for the CAUSE of the unrest is the ONLY thing that's going to change what's happening.

[Odine]

Not to sound like a complete prick here, but some people join in on the rioting just because.

 

What starts with political intentions, and is fueled by genuine passion and grievance is often extended and engaged by bored teenagers with nothing else to do who want to blow off steam by breaking shit. The noble intentions of the people who cast the first brick are kind of irrelevant.

 

The London riots of a couple years ago were a bit like this. Some drug dealer got shot dead by police in North London and it was the case of the "proverbial straw on the camels back" for the community of underprivileged estate kids. Violence kicked off, understandably so, but then continued on.. And in neighborhoods that had nothing to do with it. Then youths from all over took to the streets looting, smashing shops, setting buses on fire (like the one on my street), mugging passers by, helpin the injured people only to mug them unawares, and general intimidation tactics. YES this started as a reaction against police, but it continued because young under privileged kids a bored. And they don't give a fuck about you or me. And why should they? We don't give a fuck about them by in large so long as they shut up and keep to their stations in life and one day maybe flip burgers in mcdonalds.

 

My point is you can intellectualise the reasons for rioting and find justification for them. But the truth is there are also people A LOT of people who will engage in the smashing of shit JUST BECAUSE and I gurantee not a lot of thought went into the why.

 

I saw middle class white dudes engage in the riots in London too. It's hard not to get swept up into the emotions of situations like that. Sometimes hurling a brick at a window is a pretty apt demonstration of ones feelings.

[Pong Messiah]

Yah, that's one of the things that makes it complicated for sure.

 

At what point does destructive rage over injustice cease being a genuine (if ill-advised) form of expression and become a convenient excuse to break and steal ****? It's like pornography, in that you know it when you see it, but there's definitely no clear line and a lot of overlap.

 

So it's totally clear cut and it's not -- a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma, etc...

[Odine]

The thing with riots is in the flesh they're a lot scarier than on TV. I mean, on TV you watch and you tut and go "bloody hooligans" or whatever colloquialism.. But in the flesh it becomes painfully clear at just how tenuous a grasp the police, and governments TRULY have over their people. I mean, society is a fairly fragile thing really... and it works on the premise that we ALL as civilians accept the terms given to us by society. When you get a large portion of the population who feel cheated then it doesn't take much for society to unravel, at least temporarily.

 

I remember cycling home from work when things were going a bit pear shaped here, and it was like riding through a situation you only see on the news. Only it was real. And I saw riot cops and people lobbing things at them, and people getting mugged and store fronts on fire. And from the relative security of my agile push bike I felt a little afraid. Okay I was scared. But more than that the overwhelming emotion was exhilaration. It was weird.

[Justus]

 

Good post, Obs.

 

A counter argument I've heard to the Tea Party historical example is that it was tightly focused and designed to send a clear political message, yada yada, and that if the rioters wanted to be more "revolutionary," the property damage would be focused in the same way -- on police stations, predatory lenders, liquor stores, etc...

 

Probably something of a fair point that the destruction isn't focused enough to be a real political statement (though I think directly focusing on police property could be disastrously bloody), but even so: if people beyond your usual anarchists are angry enough to riot and you want to solve the problem, maybe you should try to figure out why, look at the rioters as fellow human beings, and work from there, rather than comments about polishing turds.

 

IMO, poverty and race (which are often intertwined) are the most complex social issues facing the U.S. and many other parts of the world, and sadly, too tied up in ideology, emotion, and cash for our intellectual/political class to have an honest discussion about atm.

The problem is, people like Pigfeet are acting like this is just because of Freddy Grey's death. It's not. Grey's death was merely the catalyst. It was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. It was the symptom of much larger social and economic problems that have been going on in Baltimore (and the nation as a whole) for decades. Problems which the existing power structure ignored. Which the police, the mayor, the governor, and all those in authority refused to deal with or address for many years. The pleas of the disenfranchised were routinely and systematically disregarded.

 

What we are dealing with is people who have been asking peacefully for years, many of them for longer than I've been alive, for society and the authorities to listen to them without success. They are people without a voice, who's pleas and screams for help have gone willfully unheard by those in power. And as such, they are left with no other way to communicate their suffering than through violence and destruction. Because it is the only thing that people will pay attention to now.

 

If we want to condemn anyone, condemn the police. The city hall. The governor's office. The Federal government. Society as a whole. Condemn all of those who had the power to change things, to do something to address the grievances of the downtrodden and disenfranchised BEFORE the riots, and who chose not to.

 

Well observed, Obsidian. If anyone notices, the breathless talking heads (attempting to force the matter in one direction) do not seriously address anything that includes responsibility from influences outside of the troubled communities, whether it is Baltimore, New York, or anywhere else. Instead, we hear the decidedly manipulative Guliani, O'Reilly, Ingraham, et al., shift the argument to black on black crimes, unwed mothers, welfare, etc. (as if any of that erases abuse from those employed to serve & protect, etc.). Needless to say, they will not address what appears to be a deep problem with the relationship between law enforcement and certain citizens, other than the notion that those in poor communities do not want to be officers, so that--in some unimaginable fashion--is the cause. Never mind the behavior of those already on the force.

 

No one will doubt there are self-created problems in Baltimore. Anyone who has set foot there / talked to its residents cannot be ignorant of that, but the national discussion on police brutality cannot be appropriated (by the paid deceivers) to be used as an attack on unrelated social issues.

[RelentlessMalice]

You know why there is a problem with the people in those communities is alot of them break the law or know someone who has been busted by the police before.

 

When you see your friends and family being busted time and time again by the police you are going to start not likeing those who lock up your friends and family. Plus I am sure there have times when the police have used aggressive force that members of the community have seen which adds to the problem.

 

At the end of the day it comes down to parrenting and having a mom and especially a father who instills values and discipline to his children and respect for the law.

[RelentlessMalice]

I would also like to add this.

 

Do any of you have a solution to these issues?

 

Mine would be....

 

1.Education

2.Mandatory police body cameras

3.Increased police presence in troubled areas when needed.

4. More recreational areas for young people to go and stay out of trouble.

5. Track down and lock up all outside people who are causing problems.

6.Increase in job and apprenticeship programs.

[Odine]

7. Don't drive people around chained up in the back of a police van without a seatbelt.

[The Human Torch]

I feel that social issues are complex problems because we make them that. I think the root of these issues come from ego and entitlement. I believe that if we continually chose to be humble, compassionate and intiutive then all these issues could melt away.

 

When at the bottom we are often unable, not cognisant of or feel slighted to accept available help. When at the top we are often unable, not cognisant of or feel slighted in being needed to help.

 

Humility / self diagnosis

Compassion / ability to want to do

Intuition / knowing how and when to do

 

There is a saying, "Every little bit helps." That is true; no one needs to be all things, we just need to do something.

 

I know. Idealistic. Naive. The list goes on. The list is part of the problem.

[Pong Messiah]

Okay I was scared. But more than that the overwhelming emotion was exhilaration. It was weird.

Glad you mentioned this.

 

Have never been in a full-on riot, but have played a lot of clubs, and seen a lot of fights break out. On two occasions, altercations escalated to a kind of critical mass, where all of the sudden it seemed like everybody was either running away or fighting with somebody. Being in the band, I was in a unique position of not being able to leave (not willing to carry equipment through brawlspaces, and no freakin' way we're gonna leave it on stage to get stolen!), but at the same time, positioned somewhat above and away from the chaos -- just kind of observing the madness while watching over our stuff. And yeah, I think exhilarating is a great term to use. I'd say somewhere between "exhilarating" and "intoxicating" perhaps? I dunno... there is definitely strange pull and appeal to it. From that perspective, I can totally see how somebody could go to a protest intending to be peaceful, but get caught up in the moment and start doing crazy stuff they wouldn't ordinarily do.

 

[Odine]

Totally... its a state of hyper-vigilance. Wide eyes and adrenaline, cortisol and accelerated heart. An odd kind of calm. But the fear is there at the same time. I think that emotion is what some writers refer to as the "battle-joy". I mean, my experience I don't believe was life and death.. so I assume that my sensation was muted in comparison to the people actually inflicting the violence. Its the reason once people get used to the initial shock of violence and fighting, they come to enjoy it. Even love getting into conflict. Not to derail the thread...

[Justus]

I would also like to add this.

 

Do any of you have a solution to these issues?

 

Mine would be....

 

1.Education

2.Mandatory police body cameras

3.Increased police presence in troubled areas when needed.

4. More recreational areas for young people to go and stay out of trouble.

5. Track down and lock up all outside people who are causing problems.

6.Increase in job and apprenticeship programs.

1. Education...for police candidates.

 

2. Body cameras are a Band-Aid, as it is another way of trying to prevent/scare officers from giving in to their instincts. If police behavior is to be modified, more education (where the history of the cultures they serve is concerned) should be a requirement before they get the badge. Body cameras is just the quickie, "look, we're doing something" response...forgetting a camera can be disabled, "damaged" in the line of duty, etc., while anyone wanting to abuse will continue to do so.