One of the original X-Men just switched teams

[Pong Messiah]

By the way, you were the one attempting to counter my exploitation post with "like most intelligent money making entities marvel thinks anything and everything is to be exploited in the media" So if you believe that in relation to this topic, then the best way to make more money is to exploit the largest assets, not C-listers the audience could not name at gunpoint.

That is ridiculous. No business person with half a brain rocks the boat with big money makers that are working. This is why "New Coke" is still a punchline 30 years later.

 

You change stuff up with the products that are failing/fading or under the radar, 'cause it gets people talking about them. You have nothing to lose when the worst case scenario is the status quo, so go ahead and roll the dice with something you think people will talk about.

 

Sheesh.

[CoLA]

Can I complain that the whole conversation in the comic sounded like an after school special?

It really did. I found the rest of it to be kinda cringey. :/

[Jacen123]

Joking aside for the moment, I'm not bothering to pick up the issue, though it has nothing to do with this revelation. I had been reading All-New X-Men, but I dropped it (and Guardians) once the just-ended Black Vortex crossover started. Even though I was already reading both books, I just didn't feel like getting caught up in it. With the book ending imminently anyway, I didn't think it was worth picking up the last issue or two with the crossover done.

[Driver]

Yeah I've dropped off for the same reasons-- but I've enjoyed this book and it's a new arc so I bought it.

 

The page above in full sequence isn't bad. If you don't like the Bendis style, where everyone talks like a 30s comedy routine, it won't float your boat-- but I didn't think it was bad.

[Justus]

 

By the way, you were the one attempting to counter my exploitation post with "like most intelligent money making entities marvel thinks anything and everything is to be exploited in the media" So if you believe that in relation to this topic, then the best way to make more money is to exploit the largest assets, not C-listers the audience could not name at gunpoint.

That is ridiculous. No business person with half a brain rocks the boat with big money makers that are working. This is why "New Coke" is still a punchline 30 years later.

 

You change stuff up with the products that are failing/fading or under the radar, 'cause it gets people talking about them. You have nothing to lose when the worst case scenario is the status quo, so go ahead and roll the dice with something you think people will talk about.

 

Sheesh.

 

 

 

By the way, you were the one attempting to counter my exploitation post with "like most intelligent money making entities marvel thinks anything and everything is to be exploited in the media" So if you believe that in relation to this topic, then the best way to make more money is to exploit the largest assets, not C-listers the audience could not name at gunpoint.

That is ridiculous. No business person with half a brain rocks the boat with big money makers that are working. This is why "New Coke" is still a punchline 30 years later.

 

You change stuff up with the products that are failing/fading or under the radar, 'cause it gets people talking about them. You have nothing to lose when the worst case scenario is the status quo, so go ahead and roll the dice with something you think people will talk about.

 

Sheesh.

 

I'm sorry, but how old are you? In Star Trek II, Spock--arguably tied as the most important franchise character--was killed. At the time, no one expected him to return, and that specific plot had nothing to do with "failing / fading or under the rocks" as Star Trek: The Motion Picture was a financial success. Killing Spock was more about Nimoy wanting to finally disassociate himself from the character (for the second time at that point), but the decision was made, with no "search for Spock" backdoor in place. The PTB gave the go-ahead on a plot with the potential to kick ST's strong legs out from under it. So, a wise business decision---aka a challenge / shock to the system played a significant part in ST's future as a film series. And yes, that death got just about everyone talking about a film that was more than the villain, and wanting more.

 

 

There are similar examples in entertainment history, but you should be aware of them.

 

Ohhh, boy.

[Pong Messiah]

Justus:

 

Despite smashing box office records the weekend of its release, TMP went on to be only the 5th highest grossing movie released in 1979. Paramount considered it a huge disappointment, because they had spent so much money on it, and because of the harm they felt critical/audience reception brought upon what was expected to be a huge money-making franchise.

 

In the wake of TMPs performance, Gene Roddenberry lost creative control, and a sequel was permitted, but only with serious budget constraints in place. With this film, Paramount intended to give Star Trek a nice little swan song, and hopefully wring a few more dollars from the fan base due to making it on the cheap (after the glacial TMP, lot of people wrongly believed only Trekkies would pay to see another Star Trek film).

 

The reason there was no TSfP backdoor in place was to appease Nimoy, and because all the smart people of the day thought Star Trek was finished -- that it had no place this strange, modern world ruled by Star Wars and Reaganomics.

 

So... sorry, but Star Trek was not a healthy franchise just chugging along making everybody oodles of money at this time. They weren't shaking things up for no reason... it wasn't even an attempt to shock the system. It was a wave goodbye (unless, of course more money was to be made).

 

Of course TWoK changed that paradigm by going on to make waaaaay more money than expected -- it not only broke box office records the weekend it was released, people actually came back and saw it again and again (a la Star Wars), and its reception from critics was much warmer, as well. As you know, it become arguably the most-loved film of the franchise. But that ain't how it started out. It was do-or-die and maybe goodbye.

 

Stop making things up.

[Justus]

Justus:

 

Despite smashing box office records the weekend of its release, TMP went on to be only the 5th highest grossing movie released in 1979. Paramount considered it a huge disappointment, because they had spent so much money on it, and because of the harm they felt critical/audience reception brought upon what was expected to be a huge money-making franchise.

 

In the wake of TMPs performance, Gene Roddenberry lost creative control, and a sequel was permitted, but only with serious budget constraints in place. With this film, Paramount intended to give Star Trek a nice little swan song, and hopefully wring a few more dollars from the fan base due to making it on the cheap (after the glacial TMP, lot of people wrongly believed only Trekkies would pay to see another Star Trek film).

 

The reason there was no TSfP backdoor in place was to appease Nimoy, and because all the smart people of the day thought Star Trek was finished -- that it had no place this strange, modern world ruled by Star Wars and Reaganomics.

 

So... sorry, but Star Trek was not a healthy franchise just chugging along making everybody oodles of money at this time. They weren't shaking things up for no reason... it wasn't even an attempt to shock the system. It was a wave goodbye (unless, of course more money was to be made).

 

Of course TWoK changed that paradigm by going on to make waaaaay more money than expected -- it not only broke box office records the weekend it was released, people actually came back and saw it again and again (a la Star Wars), and its reception from critics was much warmer, as well. As you know, it become arguably the most-loved film of the franchise. But that ain't how it started out. It was do-or-die and maybe goodbye.

 

Stop making things up.

...said the guy who just made things up. By early 1980, Paramount knew TMP was a major success where it counted, otherwise the franchise (at that point a cancelled TV series, cartoon & 1 film) would have died. No movie sequels, no TNG (or anything else). Nothing. Not only did TMP have a then-massive opening weekend of $11,926,421 (easily surpassing the four films you referred to), but the studio wanted more. By 1980, who in their right would not, after the film grossed over 82 million. Now, for a series just starting, it took balls to take advantage of a situation by appeasing one actor's desire to end a character as central as Spock--they knew what the potential for the event would be. Yes, Bennet, et al., understood some Trekkies would wet themselves over Spock dying, but for the story--the property, the game changing death brought more attention and (arguably) more respect to Star Trek because it took a chance by driving a stake into one of the most famous duos in filmed media.

 

That TWOK would end with the daring idea ripping the teeth from a spectacular victory only moments before was exactly what i'm talking about here. Whether it was Alan Scott, Batwoman or Iceman, C-list (or less) characters either coming out or reinvented as gay will never have the same effect (and opportunity to explore the character) as that plot written for A-list characters who already have the attention of most readers.

 

History has proven that being daring with established, strong properties have a favorable level of success, but for the effort the Big Two (DC & Marvel) appear to make regarding gay characters, they conveniently stop at a certain point. Though they would never affirm it, I believe they will never take any of their flagship characters in that direction due to fear; its easy to feel proud & progressive when there's no danger--that danger being (the Big Two's assumed fear of) pissing off / driving away part of the fanbase.

[Jedigoat]

I'm not an expert on the subject but I thought it was fairly well known that ST TMP was a letdown both critically and at the box office. It was successful, however it underperformed to the studio's expectations. That is why Bradbury was booted, and the budget for TWOK was tightened.

Are we rewriting history here or wtf?

[Pong Messiah]

Justus, it didn't happen like that.

 

It had a great opening weekend due to people being eager for ST on the big screen and because Paramount had spent a fortune marketing the beast. The buzz was huge; the first Happy Meal movie tie-ins were for TMP, for Christ's sake! But a great opening does not a successful movie make, and Paramount was disappointed with both the critical and box-office reception of the film. This is an established fact.

 

You have to remember that for all the money the film made, it still under-performed. And behind the scenes, there were countless rejected scripts, near-constant rewrites, the "Nimoy Situation," a failed television reboot, and too many time and effect overruns during the film's troubled production to list. Paramount had a literal crap-ton of cash they needed to make on this movie above and beyond production costs just to break even, let alone consider it a rousing success.

 

TWoK on the other hand was a comparative breeze to make. Smaller budget, no dragged out "development hell" period, highly engaged and disciplined director (no disrespect to Wise, who IMO did the best he could with what he was given), and very little spent on advertising... it pulled in less money overall, but it was so much less frustrating and so much less expensive to make, Paramount was delighted. They started ordering sequels almost immediately after its release.

Btw... I actually remember hearing that the next film was going to be about a "search for Spock" literally the afternoon I got home from seeing KHAAAAAN. I know the third film was greenlit almost immediately, which means I may have seen TWoK on a matinee the first or second day it was out. I've always wondered about that!

I'm not an expert on the subject but I thought it was fairly well known that ST TMP was a letdown both critically and at the box office. It was successful, however it underperformed to the studio's expectations. That is why Bradbury was booted, and the budget for TWOK was tightened.
Are we rewriting history here or wtf?

Yes. Justus is rewriting history.