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Thought Police


monkeygirl
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HBO’s new documentary, Thought Crimes, about the cop who was charged with conspiracy to kidnap and eat his wife, raises questions about when thinking becomes a crime....at what point does your illegal thought become an illegal action?

 

Valle, a former NYPD police officer whose conviction eventually was overturned, doesn’t dispute that he wrote on an Internet forum about tying women up and cooking them over a spit while his wife and newborn baby slept in the other room.

But this was all fantastical, he says. Valle was railroaded, his defense says: It amounts to prosecuting someone for his thoughts.

 

 

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/20/enough-of-a-cannibal-to-go-to-jail.html?source=socialflow&via=twitter_page&account=thedailybeast&medium=twitter

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Driver's on the right track here, I think. If it's just some odd ball's weird and disturbing thoughts but no more, then let it go. If the evidence points to conspiracy or premeditation to commit a crime, then I'd say stop it before they have a chance to carry it out.

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The guy had spreadsheets and used a police department database to gather information.

 

I'd say that the fact that he was using the database points to more than just harmless fantasy and is the beginning of action. Sounds like the sentence may have been harsh, but if his actions weren't criminal that frightens me as to the power of the average police officer.

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If we arrested people for writing out deviant thoughts then a lot of writers of horror would be out of a job.

I write horror for a living. It's pretty easy to not get arrested.

 

Try that again after writing a horror story about eating people and posting it on the internet along with their personal, real life details that you've gained by taking advantage of your trusted position.

 

It's not that easy now, is it?

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"Personal, real life details gained by taking advantage of your trusted position" can be used as evidence for conspiracy to commit murder, or other criminal acts. Plus abuse of police powers to get privileged information about others is itself a crime (though I suspect not one vigorously enforced). If need be, a horror or crime drama writer can make explicit that what they've written is a work of fiction and any resemblance to persons living or dead is unintentional, yada yada yada. Otherwise, I think a work of fiction would be easy to distinguish from written plans to engage in criminal activity the vast majority of the time.

 

As an aside, I'm not sure if "thought police" is really the best description of this. "Thought police" brings to mind an environment in which people are arrested and persecuted for things they believe, religious or ideological convictions, and so on. I don't think it's "thought police" to prosecute someone if there's evidence they're planning a crime.

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Just to be clear, I agree wholeheartedly and was being flip in response to Spam's post, which I also assume was also a flip response. The term "thought police" for this particular issue does seem to negate legitimate fears about potential abuses. This seems to be a pretty well documented crime. The punishment seems a bit extreme, and I don't know enough about the particulars with the case or the law to comment in a manner that would make Carrie remotely happy, but I find it hard to believe that he's not guilty of something.

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If somebody hasn't committed a crime but through their words or deeds expresses that they may commit a crime, I don't think there is any good or moral reason to punish them. That said, I don't have a problem with society monitoring them and letting them know they are being watched and will be prime suspects if something bad goes down, either.

 

For example, if Bill expresses a sexual attraction to children and then goes and trades his convertible in for a windowless van, I think the community has a duty to keep an eye on him and let the authorities know he could be headed down a really dark path. Even if he's said he would never follow through with his desires, is seeking counseling, etc. better safe than sorry, ya know?

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Guest El Chalupacabra

I've always felt conspiracy was a bull**** charge. Planning a crime a crime does not make.

So the terrorist who plans to blow up a building like Tim McVeigh shouldn't be arrested until the building is already up in smoke, even if he is caught red handed wheeling out a ton of fertilizer to his Ryder van full of detonators, and blue prints of the building in the cab?

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Sure, why not? Talking or thinking about violating laws is an exercise (in my mind) of the First Amendment. I'd rather see more dead bodies in exchange for more liberty. I find it scary that hypothetical exercises of thought can become criminalized.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

Well-that's how MOST crime is handled. Domestic violence, for instance. A person has to be hurt or killed before police can DO anything.

Sure, why not? Talking or thinking about violating laws is an exercise (in my mind) of the First Amendment. I'd rather see more dead bodies in exchange for more liberty. I find it scary that hypothetical exercises of thought can become criminalized.

Talk is one thing, and I would agree there. For example, some drunk a-hole who makes an off hand comment at the TV in a bar about the president with no means of carrying out any kind of said threat, shouldn't warrant the secret service swarming the neighborhood and arresting said drunk a-hole.

 

But once actions are set in motion, and there is a clear intent on actually carrying out the crime, then depending on the circumstances, it crosses the line. For example, in the case of the guy with a truck full of fertilizer, there are laws against possessing a certain level of fertilizer, and that right there would be the crime to arrest the guy. If under questioning he admits he, and his other militia buddies planned to carry out the crime, then right there, I have no problem with rounding up the rest and tacking on a conspiracy charge.

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I have a dark sense of humor at times. When I worked retail, I used to joke that a good day was one where I got through it without killing any customers. Of course, that is just a JOKE. I never killed anyone, and I should not be arrested for it.

 

However, if I in fact had started looking into ways to kill customers, or had tried to track down where particularly annoying customers lived so I could go after them, etc, well, that would have shown a clear intent on my part to do harm, and I would have been rightly arrested. I would not have actually harmed anyone, but it still would have been clear that I intended to.

 

That's where the line is drawn. When speech or thought starts to move towards action, that is where it can become a crime.

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