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I meant to write about this someday but never bothered. The short version:   * I was impressed by an awful lot of this * Kingpin was like a slightly more erudite Tor Johnson till Wesley's exit, and

It's awesome because not only is Punisher great, it even makes sense plot wise. One of the main themes in season one was Matt trying to decide whether to kill Fisk or not, ultimately deciding against

I remember a suggestion many years ago that where they went wrong with the Punisher, why the character has never worked for long, is that he needs a recurring antagonist. An Inspector Javert to his Va

The only bad thing is that Frank will get his ass kicked. I prefer him messing up the boyscout like Garth Ennis let him.

 

Here´s hoping for a spinoff!

That's one of the things I love about this addition: the potential to go so many ways. Will he be an opponent? An ally? Both? This show has already shown that, thankfully, they're willing to let the hero not always come out on top. DD was shown as plenty human in Season One, so it's certainly possible that he could be the one getting the ass-kicking and then having to wrestle with the notion that it was his methods that led to it. Or getting an ass-kicking from the bad guys that causes him to make an uneasy alliance. Of course, those possibilities come with other possibilities of their own. With a wild card like Castle, each appearance could lead to a different sort of outcome.

 

I, too, love the casting. There certainly was a little Punisher in Shane. And I am right there with you on the idea of a spinoff. I think this format would maybe be a better fit for this character than the movies were. More chances to explore the character, less of a need to cater to style (i.e. gratuitous violence) over substance. I can certainly see it working, if done right (and that is always the rub, isn't it?).

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I have seen a lot of people say the format could allow for exploration of the Punisher character, but to me he is the most shallow one-note comic character of all time... and I like that for him. Exploration of him could feel empty and forced. He is the most basic revenge fantasy. He is not really a character that grows, heals, mentors or even struggles with his methods. He's blunt force justice, cruel and unsual. In a way he should be treated as serial as Bond, he's the same man when the story ends as when it starts and every story is him just strolling thru something delivering hurt to the wicked in every way a victim has imagined during their stages of recovery. He's a walking slasher flick were Jason is the "good guy". In otherwords Frank probably shouldn't be the story as he's the weapon someone else gets to wield... regardless if they realize they're knowingly using him, need him or not.

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I am with Torch on the one-notedness.

 

 

Punishy is fine as a foil, or a supporting character in somebody else's world. I am super excited with both the casting (great choice), and with the possibilities for him in Daredevil playing off of both heroes and villains.

 

But he's monotonous as his own entity, IMO.

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I remember a suggestion many years ago that where they went wrong with the Punisher, why the character has never worked for long, is that he needs a recurring antagonist. An Inspector Javert to his Valjean, so to speak (although truth be told, Castle is more like the Inspector Javert character, but you know what I mean).

 

Seeing a recurring Daredevil and Punisher rivalry would probably be just what the character needs to really succeed. A regular ideological foil to challenge him.

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I could see that approach working. I'd be more in favor of a "Call me Ishmael" narration however, making Frank into Ahab. Maybe a version of the Microchip character could be Ishmael. Perhaps play on the War Journal "star trek captains log" thing that Frank does in the comic, but have Microchip either doing it here or adding to it. Hmm. Maybe that could work modernly as a blog. Microchip could work as a retro-reference by Ben Urich when he says people say anything on the internet.

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Frank himself isn´t a very compelling character, no. He´s almost not a character at all. But with the right company he makes for a great story anyway. He can give Daredevil or Spiderman or whoever a look at what they might become if they cross the line. Or he can be the straight man force of nature as Garth Ennis wrote him with an insane rouges gallery around. His Frank was basically a new version of the Saint of Killers from Preacher. Totally without a sense of humour which made him all the funnier in weird situations.

 

Even the few pages Frank got in "Original sins" made me laugh out loud. Especially after hearing the long and shocking (well... kinda) explanation for all the killings and Frank shrugging it all off with "I don´t see the problem".

 

Of course, with Frank around there´s also a useful deus (diabolus?) ex machina for when a villian really needs to be offed without using the old Batman and Disney copout "OMG the bad guy fell off this tall building just because I punched him 300 times! The horror!"

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Yeah, I'd go with an entire storyarc. With Punisher trying to stay under the radar, keep Daredevil off his trail. He feels he has to use extreme measures to clean up Hell's Kitchen, while this fellow vigilante, the one who took down Fisk, is investigating, getting closer and closer to finding him. Castle is having to continuously stay on the move to remain one step ahead of Daredevil. The entire season being Matt's hunt for this Punisher, as Castle tries to continue his war without getting caught. All while Fisk is plotting his return to power. This would create great tension for the audience. Meanwhile, Daredevil opposes his actions, but understands his motivations, and the feeling of having 'the devil inside' him, and struggles with that.

 

It's just what Punisher needs to become more than just a generic anti-hero, I think.

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That is likely the path they take, also in keeping with a positive spin on Frank, I guess I am just hoping Frank and Matt don't end up fist bumping or having a Yo, Joe! moment even if their target ends up the same person. I think Frank has more to say being an actual villain... being the villain I can understand, rather than the hero that is a badass. I think that is a distinction which, for me at least, makes Frank's appearances with other heroes (anti or not) end up feeling false and forced. Frank posing in Captain America duds is barf. Frank working alongside Spidey is barf. Even Frank working with Wolverine feels muddled and Wolverine is a man, the anti-hero, that kills enemies whenever he feels like it. There is a very core thing about Frank than should effectively alienate him from every other hero. I'm almost convinced that Frank is deeply deeply broken even prior to his family being gunned down, that he's just a villain that happens to be killing villains.

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That is likely the path they take, also in keeping with a positive spin on Frank. However I think Frank has more to say being an actual villain... being the villain I can understand, rather than the hero that is a badass. I think that is a distinction which, for me at least, makes Frank's appearances with other heroes (anti or not) end up feeling false and forced. Frank posing in Captain America duds is barf. Frank working alongside Spidey is barf. Even Frank working with Wolverine feels muddled and Wolverine is a man, the anti-hero, that kills enemies whenever he feels like it. There is a very core thing about Frank than should effectively alienate him from every other hero. I'm almost convinced that Frank is deeply deeply broken even prior to his family being gunned down, that he's just a villain that happens to be killing villains.

There are different interpretations of the Punisher, depending on the writer. With some, he's well-intentioned, geniunely motivated by the desire to better the world. With others, he's really no better than the people he opposes, someone who simply enjoys killing, and just happens to go after other killers. I think both interpretations are valid.

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Totally valid, I mean anything said otherwise flies in the face of and probably should be seen as disrepectful to decades of successful storytelling. :-) Hopefully I wasn't coming across as THIS IS ONLY HOW IT SHOULD BE. lol

 

I was just speaking from how I think the character works best for my sensibilities. Also in that light, I don't think wanting to make things better and enjoying killing need to be mutally exclusive for Frank. I think Frank being motivated to make the world better should always be present, I think that's super duper important. I just feel what Frank thinks is better is what makes him a villain, rather than an anti-hero. Frank feels like Kingpin, just without the need to command an empire... or even talk to others really. lol

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I'm just popping in to say that I'm partway through episode 11 now that I've finally had a chance to watch the show. It's so good. I'm looking forward to going back through the comments soon to see what you've all said.

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Frank himself isn´t a very compelling character, no. He´s almost not a character at all. But with the right company he makes for a great story anyway. He can give Daredevil or Spiderman or whoever a look at what they might become if they cross the line. Or he can be the straight man force of nature as Garth Ennis wrote him with an insane rouges gallery around. His Frank was basically a new version of the Saint of Killers from Preacher. Totally without a sense of humour which made him all the funnier in weird situations.

 

Even the few pages Frank got in "Original sins" made me laugh out loud. Especially after hearing the long and shocking (well... kinda) explanation for all the killings and Frank shrugging it all off with "I don´t see the problem".

 

Of course, with Frank around there´s also a useful deus (diabolus?) ex machina for when a villian really needs to be offed without using the old Batman and Disney copout "OMG the bad guy fell off this tall building just because I punched him 300 times! The horror!"

Part of the reason I think the Punisher never really took off in the movies was because the basis of the character came from the movies in the first place. The Punisher of the comics was very much in the Death Wish/Dirty Harry mold. When it came time to put the Punisher (back) into the movies there wasn't a lot to differentiate him from dozens of other similar characters from dozens of other movies over the past 30-40 years.

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Finally got around to watching. I didn't think it was so OMG amazing I had to binge it in two days-- but it was pretty great. Certainly the best villain realized in the MCU. Makes me wish they'd started the MCU this way to build up characters and stories more, and then move into doing the big spectacle movies where there's so much less time.

 

Excited for the Punisher (and the rest of the street level Marvel characters) but I feel like Stark or Cap should pay a visit just to help sell the shared universe a little.

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I meant to write about this someday but never bothered. The short version:

 

* I was impressed by an awful lot of this

* Kingpin was like a slightly more erudite Tor Johnson till Wesley's exit, and then he finally, truly came alive for me as a malevolent force

* I want Charlie Cox to play this role forever

* I expected to hate Foggy on hair principle alone and can't believe I somehow didn't

* I like Ben Urich way more in comics than I did here

* Absolute best treatment of religion in a modern TV show I've seen within the last three years

* I wish they'd been forcibly limited to 45 minutes an episode, because boy-howdy do those early episodes seriously plod and stall

* Episode 9's feature-length title bout with Nobu was amazing and horrifying; fights where DD was passing off obvious pro-wresting tumbles as kung-fu, not nearly so much

* Completely related correlation: the rest of the world loves the episode 2 tracking-shot fight way more than I did, and all those comparisons to The Raid were off the mark (except maybe the abrupt appliance toss)

* Black costume >>> mandatory red leather

* Bob Gunton as Owlsley was a true MVP who'll be dearly missed

* I'll take some more now, please.

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* Absolute best treatment of religion in a modern TV show I've seen within the last three years

Peter McRobbie was fantastic. He was given some great dialogue and his performance was excellent. I loved his Matt scenes.

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