Pong Messiah Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 If you have a liquor license or have had one and served beer/wine/alcohol recently (like the last 5 years), would like to get your opinion on what you'd expect liability-wise for business owners and servers when it comes to acts of stupid committed by their drunk patrons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms. Spam Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 It has been about 8 years since I last pulled a tap. I used to sell beer at Braves games in Atlanta and at Spurs games, plus lug the beer up and down the stands. I think the biggest liability is serving under age drinkers and certain prone drunks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Yeah in the UK at least you're only really liable if you sell booze to a minor. Then you could get a £5k fine, possibly lose your license etc.. that said no one checks for ID in london unless its a big bar/club. In which case kids under 18 can just go to an off-license and buy some cans/hip flasks/spirits and drink on the street. As for customers getting drunk and doing stupid shit... depending on said "shit" that they do I don't think the bar or manager would be liable unless they were directly at fault for something. Allowing drugs into your bar can get you in hot water, but thats only if you get found out. Usually its in the bars best interest to allow drug use (High people will drink more than not high people.), so long as the bar and staff can plead ignorance. So its usually a case of.. go for it but don't let us see you or catch you. And serving someone who is already intoxicated is kind of a non-issue unless they are at the disturbing/violent/disruptive drunk stage. As long as people can hold their shit together thats a non issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas1138 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 You're always liable when you serve to minors. You're sometimes liable when you serve the "habitually intoxicated." You're frequently (maybe?) liable when you serve a visibly intoxicated person (this has a much more complicated definition than you'd think). My experience with this is pretty much limited to the tort of negligence and "dram shop" cases, and it was as a first year law student where I was/am clueless. This isn't legal advice blah blah blah all the usual stuff. If Irish or Carrie know better and won't to pop in, I wouldn't be offended You live in Washington, right? You can check this out http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=66, especially things in 66.44. Here's a good blog post from WA about court cases and it has taken in the past to prove negligence on the shop owner's part, there's several posts on here under the category section as well http://www.theseattleinjuryattorney.com/washington-supreme-court-rules-on-dram-shop-case/ I know that's not the personal experience you were asking for, but I know you're a smart guy and don't mind reading usually. EDIT: If I remembered wrong and you don't live in WA, but want to do research for your state, just use search terms like alcoholic beverage control, and 'dram shop' plus your state and that should return plenty of interesting results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryn Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Wasn't this included in the Dummies cheat sheet I linked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 Wasn't this included in the Dummies cheat sheet I linked?It had a section on what to look out for (ways to spot intoxicated patrons), but I made this post cuz I'm interested in personal experiences people have had. One of my friends is a ridiculously talented brewer, and he has said on more than one occasion that he could never open up a pub and do it for a living, because of all the liability that comes along with drunk people. So I did some research on this, and it seems the fear is rather unfounded -- yes, you can be liable for the things somebody does after you serve them... if you don't get insurance (which is required in most cases), and if you aren't careful about covering your butt (e.g. allowing anybody in your establishment to serve alcohol who doesn't have their liquor card, not checking ID and/or serving minors, etc.). It sounds like you are pretty close to bullet proof if you simply know and comply with the rules, and employ a modicum of common sense when dealing with alcohol. In a small, completely non-scientific survey of people I know who have managed or owned restaurants or bars, I got two whole stories about fear of liability, and neither are particularly great: A guy who went nuts, broke stuff, and scared a lot of people after to a drug interaction (hard cider and anti-depressants or something).A young man who had been slurring his words and cut off despite insisting he hadn't even had a drink went into a diabetic coma by the pool tables (wasn't monitoring his blood sugar properly or something) In both cases, the owner thought he might be liable at first, but of course neither patron was over served, and it became known after the incident that already had something else serious going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Krawlie Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 haha pong's a dummy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 dur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms. Spam Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Pong, it is a bit of a headache to get things organized and pay all the permits and fees and train staff for a bar. So I can totally understand your friend not wanting to do that. I think restaurants are easier because most people are there to eat so they're not there to drink all night like in a bar. He should look into just selling his ale to local taverns if it is that good. Or just selling to families interested. My anecdotal information about selling beer. Mostly it was hard for me to remember returning dudes. So I'm pretty sure I sold to overly drunk baseball and basketball dudes who returned to the food and drink areas after pissing in the men's room where I would work in the actual food court like area pulling taps for shitty Buds and Miller Lites. I just couldn't keep up with that stuff, especially in the hot summers where a cold beer was popular in Atlanta. Usually at Spurs games it was a little easier because the food court area where I worked was air conditioned so you could more easily discern a drunk dude from a hot guy stroking out from the sun. Plus games only last so long so you tend to sweat or not drink as much as say a bar denizen who's been haunting a bar stool for 8 hours because he's afraid to go home or doesn't want to. The other thing I hated about selling beer is the ***holes and general shittiness of people. But you get that anywhere. I had some issues with anal dudes who thought I shorted them a pour when I was walking the stands with the giant box around my neck trying to negotiate people going by me. Sometimes by the time the beer had reached the guy some had spilled and he'd be an asshole about it. The other issue I had is was being stiffed on money by the guy paying. Beer was four bucks back when I went up and down the aisles and I had a guy pass me a dollar. I was young and stupid and gave the beer over before he paid. So by the time the bill reached me the guy had drunk the beer and left me with a dollar but people were nice and added the extra 3 bucks. Although there were things to be done about this guy. Usually I had to inform security but I didn't want to screw over other peoples baseball experience. I have also spilled beer on Jane Fonda. That was good times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Booze is soooo much easier and FAR more profitable to sell than food. Unless you are doing some high quality marked up food, owning a restaurant or cafe the margins are not very good at all. It's a really really hard business if you wanna do it well. So is owning a bar. But booze has a much higher profit margin and you need less overheads and licensing malarky since all you need is a liquor license. When you start dealing with food AND booze there are all kinds of dramas.... Your overheads go up a lot too. Plus you need more staff with a whole bunch more roles owning a restaurant than a bar... fuck that. I'd way rather own a quality boozer selling good beers n whiskey n cocktails n spirits with a sweet sound system and free jukebox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms. Spam Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 A good friend who used to post here in the Comics and Music Forums runs the Magnolia Bar in L-ville. He was always magnanamous when there. The bar was always packed. I think now it would be more a hipster bar because of the tattooed guys and ironic t-shirts but it was a good fun bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Hipsters are harmless. So not surprised the bar was fun. In all the bars I've worked in the evening usually turns not-fun by dick head behaviour and aggressive dudes getting mouthy. More often than not it comes from the 9-5 business-suit types who are letting their hair down cause it's the weekend ruining the fun. Not the weedy hipster guy with the curly moustache n' beard wearing a "vintage" t-shirt with 1980s-hairmetal-Viking-riding-a-wolf-under-a-moon print on it. He's fun as long as he doesn't start talking about coffee filtration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolence Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 My experience is all irrelevant since it consists of unlicensed sales of bootlegged liquor that was either non-taxed or illegal. (shrug) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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