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Male-female platonic relationships


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There is a lot of truth in this thread and a lot of utter b.s.

 

The idea that a dude cannot have female friends sans any sort of sexual inclination is b.s.

A woman who forbids her husband from having female friends is full of B.S.

A husband who thinks every man that talks to his wife is out to nail her is also full of B.S.

 

If you think you got friend-zoned (and you're not jacob) YOU are full of B.S.

 

Tha majority of my friends have always been women. My three closest friends, women. My closest friend is my ex wife, who I used to have sex with, and no longer do-- and her husband (who's become a friend) and my gf have zero problem with the fact that she and I have lunches and are otherwise left alone unsupervised pretty frequently.

 

People who are insecure either need to get over their shit, or make sure they aren't paired with an asshole they can't trust. Period.

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I think you two stumbled upon something here. I do not view every heterosexual male in the world as a "potential sexual mate". And I don't believe many women do actually. But it's fairly obvious that men are trained/conditioned/expected to think differently. (At least given the small sample of people here.) Boy, isn't that quite the commentary on society!

Speaking from the "other side" so to speak, I think what a lot of it comes down to is that women are under enormous social pressure to "guard" their sexuality very jealously and be non-sexual. A lot of lip service is paid to feminist ideals of self ownership in this regard, the reality is that the more things have changed, the more they really have stayed the same, by and large. Liberation has really just changed the way in which female asexuality is positively framed and portrayed: "modesty" and "virtue" have been replaced with "independent" and "a human being, not a sex object" even though they all boil down to the same thing. Married or not, she is to have no interest in such things.

 

Men face the opposite stupid extreme situation. We're under a lot of pressure from a "he who dies with the most notches in his bed post wins" type of mind set.

 

These two factors incentivize a tendency for men to read potentially sexual intent into a woman's platonic friendliness a good deal more than it's actually there. From the stand point of the way men are socialized and the pressures we're under, a false positive (thinking she's interested when she really isn't) is no big deal and, in fact, an expected result of our search for a sexual mate. But a false negative (thinking she's not interested when she really is) is a major social catastrophe. "You missed out on a chance to get laid, bro!" In some male social circles, this is no ****ing joke. Too many "false negatives" of this nature and people start wondering if you might be - and picture this in huge, menacing block letters - GAY. Or at the very least, you're ridiculed a lot for social ineptness. You're doing your masculinity WRONG! And being married provides a lot less exemption from this than you might think.

 

A further negative spin-off from this is that a woman who DOES have a romantic/sexual interest in a male co worker has an advantage that the much more common male who has an interest in a female co worker does not have. Because "Men want what women have" (and not vice versa, apparently) - men are expected to jump at whatever chance is availed them. A woman scores points for shooting down a lustful male suitor - she "respects herself" "doesn't need a man" "is not an object" or whatever. A man who shoots down a lustful female suitor (or whatever the equivalent term would be) is just plain weird. "WTF is wrong with him?" "He must HATE WOMEN!" "He's a ****ing queer!" Trust me on that. This is unpleasant experience talking.

 

So in a situation like this, a guy faced with a female co worker who even could be into him when he does not reciprocate that sentiment is a potentially serious threat. If he's married, this increases exponentially. Now having said all this, different people and social situations vary greatly. Much more progressive and enlightened ways of thinking prevail in some environments. Good for them. But old stereotypes, even if they are not quite so blatant and up front as I've presented them as being here, do still prevail frequently.

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  • Men and women can be friends. This is especially true if they aren't attracted to each other!
  • If one or both are feeling some kind of attraction and sexing is an inappropriate course of action, it can get weird, but it's not a huge deal if both parties have any semblance of maturity and self-control. Still totally possible.
  • If you are pair bonded, and your partner views every friend you could possibly have sexual interest in as a potential fling, they have problems that may be impossible to overcome. Well, unless you have a history of infidelity and/or humping anything that moves, in which case, they might be at least somewhat justified.
  • What about "emotional affairs?" Are we over them?

SUMMARY: I think platonic male-female friendship is totally possible, and I think people who see humping or potential humping under every male-female friendship are weird and childish. Yes, platonic friendships happen. Even between attractive single people with healthy sex drives you'd think would be all over one another.

 

That said, I don't think men are simply "conditioned by society" to want to bone every attractive women they see every day all day. Many just do, and I'm sure many would if it were entirely without consequence.* When it comes to understanding this aspect of human nature, the women who wear yoga pants are currently a few steps ahead of the social scientists and their fancy advanced degrees.

 

I also can't count the number of times some old friend or co-worker who was "just good friends" with my partner finally broke down and confessed his *gasp* *swoon* love to her, so forgive me if I raise an eyebrow when a potential sexual mate starts showing a lot of attention to the person I'm with. Doesn't mean I'm gonna freak out or lay down ultimatums, and it doesn't mean there definitely is intent on the part of the attentive friend, but I'm not naive about the odds, either.

 

SUMMARY: Platonic male-female friendship is totally possible, but in the words of the immortal Ronnie James Dio and New Edition...

 

Because you might want to...

 

:eek:

 

 

 

* rejection, disease, pregnancy, craziness, break up of family unit, loss of social connections or ostracization, etc... wow, maybe monogamy isn't so bad?

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SUMMARY: I think platonic male-female friendship is totally possible, and I think people who see humping or potential humping under every male-female friendship are weird and childish. Yes, platonic friendships happen. Even between attractive single people with healthy sex drives you'd think would be all over one another.

I'll add that a HUGE factor in public perception regarding this sort of thing is age and stage of life. In my experience, a tendency to see "humping under every male-female relationship" and to almost demand a justification when humping is NOT present corellates strongly to age groups where hormones > life experience. The presence rather than the absence of humping or even the thought thereof becomes abhorrent (or perceived as such) once children, middle age and divorce induced bitterness encroach.

 

That said, I don't think men are simply "conditioned by society" to want to bone every attractive women they see every day all day. Many just do, and I'm sure many would if it were entirely without consequence.* When it comes to understanding this aspect of human nature, the women who wear yoga pants are currently a few steps ahead of the social scientists and their fancy advanced degrees.

I don't think it's always "social conditioning" as much as it is tacitly understood peer expectations that prevail in certain social circles. I went to Catholic high schools wherein abstinence before marriage and so on were stressed by both parents and the educational establishment, while the jocks and hippies/heads who attended these schools had mentalities that would make your "Animal House" fraternity look like a nunnery. Conservative proponents of "abstinence only" and opposition to "value free" sex ed should take note here.
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I firmly believe that men and women an be friends, but also firmly believe that a friendship based on use can't be a friendship.

 

If I'm your friend just because you have a cute butt and I want to touch it, that really isn't friendship.

 

If I'm your friend just because you brew great beer, I'm not your friend.

 

If I'm your friend because I'm hoping to get an advance look at the script for Leatherface, I aam your friend and you should do it even if we just met when I asked you for it.

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I firmly believe that men and women an be friends, but also firmly believe that a friendship based on use can't be a friendship.

 

If I'm your friend just because you have a cute butt and I want to touch it, that really isn't friendship.

 

If I'm your friend just because you brew great beer, I'm not your friend.

 

If I'm your friend because I'm hoping to get an advance look at the script for Leatherface, I aam your friend and you should do it even if we just met when I asked you for it.

I get that, but aren't those kinda separate issues?

 

I want to touch ur butt, btw.

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What I still don't understand is why the automatic assumption by an outsider is that acts of friendship between a man and a woman are signs of a sexual relationship (budding, potential, ongoing, whatever). If we can all agree that it's possible for men and women to have a platonic friendship where sex doesn't even enter the equation, then why do we assume that because two people are enjoying a close relationship they must be secretly scoring or trying to score? And why are people trying to avoid this "illusion of impropriety" by ostracizing potential friends?

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Oddly I work better with male bosses instead of female bosses. I was thinking about this as I drank my coffee this morning. It was especially true when I was a Taco Bell manager. I don't know if it was a personal type I hate you and I'm going to tear you down but I worked much harder and was less undermining when I had a male Store Manager or District manager. The only female boss I really never talked back to or put down in front of employees (this is my youthful stupid twenties) was a very butchy woman who really acted like a man and got shit done.

 

Friendship wise I have more male friends than female but mostly because I hate endless conversations about make-up and hair or superficial type stuff which seems to be the topic of discussion in the teachers lounge or while sharing duty at recess and before and after school. I do have lots of artist type friends but mostly I realize it is because free booze and good food as I tend to tune out of some topics and fade away although they are seriously interesting people who have valid things to say. Heh. Much like here!

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What I still don't understand is why the automatic assumption by an outsider is that acts of friendship between a man and a woman are signs of a sexual relationship (budding, potential, ongoing, whatever). If we can all agree that it's possible for men and women to have a platonic friendship where sex doesn't even enter the equation, then why do we assume that because two people are enjoying a close relationship they must be secretly scoring or trying to score? And why are people trying to avoid this "illusion of impropriety" by ostracizing potential friends?

What I still don't understand is what the hell difference it would make to an outsider whether a man and woman palling about are boinking behind the scenes or not. Some people thrive on gossip and having a soap-opera like environment around themselves. I don't really get that. If two mutual friends or co-workers are involved with each other sexually or not, I DON'T CARE!

 

Friendship wise I have more male friends than female but mostly because I hate endless conversations about make-up and hair or superficial type stuff which seems to be the topic of discussion in the teachers lounge or while sharing duty at recess and before and after school.

Sitting about talking about engines in cars or sports teams doesn't interest me either. This is why I gravitate to the internet. Neither stereotypically feminine OR masculine stuff interests me.

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The day before I left to go on Spring Break the teachers in the lounge were talking about how they had to get their hair and nails done before going to the beach for the week that were women and the men were talking about camping out and looking forward to boating on the lake if the weather lets up (we've been having rain but after Wednesday it should be great). I totally get turning to the internet.

 

I think as we age friendships change and we just have a few people we consider close and stay in touch with or do things with. I do see posts in FB from people I went to school with but don't really say let's have a beer/wine and go out. Because my interests have changed quite a bit from grammar school days. So when I do interact with people platonically I do it when I go to art galleries or other non-work things. I've had really good conversations with strangers about music or art or politics in a casual setting. I don't think wives are scared of me stealing their man though when we talk because basically I am not a hottie or a big catch. I have cat hair sticking to me or laugh obnoxiously loud at genuinely funny things. They feel safe interacting with me or letting their SO interact with me because clearly I'm just having good fun talking to people. I am the wingwoman! Platonic away! So essentially I have nothing of value to add to this topic but to say that I think it is possible for a just friends friendship to bloom. And people who are scared or label the friendship as "this is to get into the pants of BLANK" are really insecure and petty.

 

Another thing: Once I'm outa work for the day I would like to not think about or do anything concerning work. If I hang out with people I work with the talk usually gravitates to complaining about work. That's not getting away from work. That's soul stealing my free time. Who wants that noise? So I have people I say I work with but no close work friends because I purposely stay away from that.

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If we can all agree that it's possible for men and women to have a platonic friendship where sex doesn't even enter the equation, then why do we assume that because two people are enjoying a close relationship they must be secretly scoring or trying to score?

Because.

 

Even though it's definitely possible and healthy for potential sexual partners to have platonic friendships, there are tons of close, harmless relationships that have turned into physical or emotional affairs -- or at least into one party pining after the other, while the other wonders how to extricate themselves. Given how often we've all seen that happen, and given that it is human nature to gossip and create drama, it would seem strange to me if people didn't assume.

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Heh. I just thought about this little factoid from Spam's life: My dad was close friends with the lady he worked with who ended up being his second wife! Maybe Pongs on to something! They were actually co-workers who just happened to attend the same Ala-non group for spouses of alcoholics. Their bonding over alcoholic spouses they later divorced lead to a great relationship and my Dad and Step-mom have been hitched for 20+ years.

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This is it's own thread now? What was a short rant about an issue at my job is...this. Wow, there are so many things I want to respond to and I don't have the patience for all that typing on an iPad so I'll do it the lazy way:

 

Of course men and women can be platonic friends! i mean...duh no ****ing shit. I don't think anyone who responded in this thread saying men and women can't be just friends. I know I never said that. Most healthy human beings have platonic friendships. If you don't have any, you need to make more friends.

 

The point of my rant: sometimes, when one friend wants more than friendship from the other, and the other is married, it can be a threat to that marriage without any foul play or ill intentions or any past promiscuity or any crap like that. Ive seen it happen. Someone asked why would my wife feel uncomfortable with me just hanging out with my female friend. If you understood my point you would already know the answer, it's the first sentence of this very paragraph, but I will state it again as simply as I possibly can considering how elusive this concept apparently is: I don't want my wife to think I'm banging some office slut, because this girl wants my shit and could care less about MY goddamn marriage in the first place. I know this because I just goddamn know. I felt she was trying to leverage our "friendship" into something else, so I drew a line in the sand and she repeatedly tries to cross it; that's how I know. So we are no longer friends. Women like that are trouble for men. I think Kurgan was the only one that identified with this situation at all and didn't interpret my posts as general statements against the possibility of the existance of man/woman friendships.

 

Anyways, here's the way We handled the situation: I told my wife about this girl, and to make her cool her jets, my wife came to my job on a Saturday all dressed up, hair done, makeup, looking all hot, just to give me my lunch that I "forgot", and I introduced each other. Boom. Inadequate much? nice.

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I don't think he said that "men and women can't be friends." I think he means that a platonic friendship will strain the existing marriage or relationship if the intentions of one side turn out not to be so "platonic."

 

Damn right I can relate, DANAkin. I have stories that make grizzled vets of the most desperate dating scenes shiver. There are reasons why I am the way I am, let me put it that way.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest TheRuralJuror

There can only be plutonic friendship if there is no attraction. I have had one or two truly plutonic girlfriends in my life but it's a very rare gift.

 

Dana - the situation you explain is not a plutonic friendship. It's a one sided attraction and a one way transfer of energy.

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