Dating Outside Your Religion or Philosophy

[Pong Messiah]

So this guy I know who is a hardcore, almost militant atheist is dating a Muslim chick. From what I gather, she is not hardcore about her beliefs like he is, but she's also definitely more than a casual, "culturally religious" person -- i.e. she believes in supernatural stuff.

 

Now, on one level, I do get it: they've both always had a bit of the "Most Attractive Person in the Room" thing going on, so it only seems natural they'd begin humping one another at some point. There's a certain inevitability to it.

 

On another level, though, it just seems so wrong.

 

In the eyes of an atheist, a religious person is something of a child. Naive, if not an utter simpleton in at least one aspect of their lives. In the eyes of a religious person, an atheist is spiritually empty, if not a sinner/evil/whateva. Blind, and possibly a genuinely bad person (I know they say "love the sinner, but...").

 

If I believed in G_d, I certainly wouldn't want a partner who (even if they didn't admit it) looked down on me for my faith. And as a non-believer, I certainly wouldn't want a partner who (even if they didn't admit it) was always disappointed in me over my "emptiness" or thought I was a bad person.

 

What kind of person is OK with that?

 

-------

 

Moving beyond religion/faith, what about philosophy and politics and "irreconcilable differences" that may prop up? I have heard plenty of people say they'd NEVER date a raging Republican or feminist (or whatever -- those are just the two disqualifiers that pop up most frequently), only to end up married years later to somebody who fits that bill, so maybe it's not as serious an issue as faith? I dunno, but it all seems so illogical and (at least after a point) self-defeating to me.

 

Is it true love conquering all or just garden-variety desperation?

 

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

 

Is it true love conquering all or just garden-variety desperation?

 

Generally speaking, when diametrically opposed political or religious people hook up, it could be purely a physical attraction thing, so when that fizzles, their done. It could also be an exotic thing for each, and when the newness wears off, their done at that point, too. Or, there could be money involved, where one of them is the sugar daddy/mama, and money can make people ignore a lot, at least for a while.

 

But honestly, not enough info to even begin commenting on these friends of your, specifically.

 

Is your atheist friend more accepting of Muslims than Christians/other religions? (Important to know because a lot of atheists aren't so much militant God-haters, as they are Christian-haters, due to whatever issues they have with Christianity specifically...IE ex-Catholics rebelling against the Church)

 

Is your Muslim friend US born? Was she born into the faith, and how many generations? Or was she a recent convert?

 

Are they F***ing, or just dating? (Important to know because if they are and are not married, then she's not THAT into her religion, which explains much)

 

What age are they? Have they both had a lot of relationships? (the older they are, and more relationships they have had, the more likely it's not just a physical or sex thing)

 

Do they have everything else in common interest/personality wise, besides religion? (sometimes if that is the case, people deal with it by simply not talking about religion/politics)

[Pong Messiah]

Oh, sorry. Was being deliberately vague in order to keep the discussion more general about believer/non-believer or "bi-partisan" relationships.

 

Regarding your more specific questions... I don't really feel OK going deeper into them. Not out of respect for anybody's privacy, but because he knows I post here

 

Also:

(Important to know because if they are and are not married, then she's not THAT into her religion, which explains much)

Don't agree with this. Lotsa people who consider themselves deeply religious have premarital sex; there are lotsa non-religious, "sexually liberated" people who don't bone everything that moves just 'cause it's not taboo.

 

If people are horny enough for each other, they will, generally speaking, find a way to have sex, regardless of hurdles or the rationalizations that must be made.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

I was raised catholic, but the reality of the situation is I'm an atheist. I have no faith. My wife, however, is catholic, and we don't have any problems on the spiritual/philosophical level for two reasons:

 

Pragmatism. She believes in God, I don't. I don't resent her, or think she's stupid for believing so. When we go to church I even participate to some extent. How can I stand it? On the off chance I'm wrong. What is there to lose by believing in God and being wrong? Nothing. Its like talking into a toy phone-it's foolish, but at the same time it's harmless. We still go to the same oblivion when we die. What is there to lose by being an atheist and being wrong? When your number is up, it's too late for any do overs. In terms of a risk-reward analysis, the believers win out. So, I go along because there literally isn't anything for me to lose.

 

Functionality. Religion serves a function for those that believe. Heaven and the after-life is comforting. Oblivion and emptiness is not. I would LIKE to believe in heaven. For believers, there is comfort even if they are wrong. For atheists, there is no solace in being right. Why would I want to rain on my wife's (or anyone else's) parade? I want her to be happy. I want to be happy. If we are fortunate to be together for the rest of our lives, in our final moments I don't want her to be fearful like I probably will be.

[The Kurgan]

My wife and I nearly split two months into our relationship (20 f**king years ago now) because I was an atheist and she an Anglican. In my case, extenuating circumstances overrode any concerns I had about religious and political differences. Hell, the fact I was dating at all bespoke the fact that I was in a very bizarre and desperate situation.

 

The only true disqualifier for me would be a real true believer sort. I'm generally less concerned about the beliefs themselves than I am about the underlying psychology and personality type, and the void in the person's life that those beliefs really exist to fill in. (Hint: not long after my present wife/then g/f had been going steady a while and became sexually active, I quite rapidly became a "social democrat" or "left liberal" and only occasionally a "socialist" when I was in a bad mood, rather than an outright "Communist"). A fanatic who felt that her religion, her atheism, her feminism, her traditional "red neck girl" schtick or whatever was the one word from which all truth flowed will not get far with me. Hell, super religious and super feminist people almost seem to look at sex as being itself a "sacramental" act in their faith. The Ayn Rand fanatics are explicit in this regard. No thanks. You can have it.

 

Otherwise, human belief systems are very complex, and the real reasons why people think the way they do are quite rarely the rationalizations provided by their ideologies. It's very hard to judge unless you really know the person.

 

Don't agree with this. Lotsa people who consider themselves deeply religious have premarital sex; there are lotsa non-religious, "sexually liberated" people who don't bone everything that moves just 'cause it's not taboo.

This. I've been completely blind sided in the past by folksy, traditionalist, God fearing conservative red neck types who turned out to have a real freaky side beneath the "not that kind of girl" veneer. Maybe they figured they could **** the commie out of me. I don't know. Conversely, the more a girl (or guy's) appearance telegraphs blatant sexuality, the more frequently they end up being scared s**tless of real human intimacy or simply can't or won't get/give any. Even were I single, I could not be bothered to overcome the trashy french maid's virgin frigidity, nor would I dare brave the Catholic lay sister's dungeon that would make 50 Shades of Grey look vanilla. Those are younger men's games.

[Destiny Skywalker]

I wouldn't be able to do it for the reasons Pong outlined above. Contempt has no place in a marriage. I'm having difficulty just maintaining a friendship with someone who identifies herself as an atheist because she's so obnoxious about it. Half her Facebook posts run along the line of, "Hurrr! Stupid Christians! Science!" Bitch, I can out science your ass any day. She belives in a lot of weird pseudoscience and is always trying to push it on everyone around her. I have plenty of atheist friends who I don't have problems with, but they do often blindly insult their religious friends. I can't see that going well in a marriage. My husband and I generally are very honest with each other, so having to tamp down a major opinion like that for the sake of keeping peace would wear on me after awhile. It's hard enough to agree on how to raise a kid without all that in there.

[Ms. Spam]

With young people is religion even important any more?

 

I've seen some women convert to Islam and people freak out about it. LIKE OMG! Why do you want to join a religion that blows stuff up!?

 

Social identifiers are not so bad for religion though in some circles. I mean my Dad had to convert to Catholicism to marry my Mom. But now it is less of a social stigma even if my Grandmother won't go to Church with me because I think it is alright for women to be pastors and lead the church and converted to being Lutheran. The new Pope may make a few more religious converts too.

[Darth Krawlie]

Pragmatism. She believes in God, I don't. I don't resent her, or think she's stupid for believing so. When we go to church I even participate to some extent. How can I stand it? On the off chance I'm wrong. What is there to lose by believing in God and being wrong? Nothing. Its like talking into a toy phone-it's foolish, but at the same time it's harmless. We still go to the same oblivion when we die. What is there to lose by being an atheist and being wrong? When your number is up, it's too late for any do overs. In terms of a risk-reward analysis, the believers win out. So, I go along because there literally isn't anything for me to lose.

 

Sounds like Pascal's Wager. Here's an expanded version:

 

 

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8NdaLJYgUIs/UEzOZj0N9jI/AAAAAAAABPs/jO2Lxk-rS0M/s1600/expanded.png

 

 

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

For a second I thouht you were trying to explain fluid mechanics.

 

Edit: So I googled pascals wager. Yes that's pretty much right for me. That obviously must make me just as brilliant as he was. Go me.

[Carrie Mathison]

it could be purely a physical attraction thing, so when that fizzles, their done. It could also be an exotic thing for each, and when the newness wears off, their done at that point, too.

"They're," not "their."

[Carrie Mathison]

How can I stand it? On the off chance I'm wrong. What is there to lose by believing in God and being wrong? Nothing. Its like talking into a toy phone-it's foolish, but at the same time it's harmless. We still go to the same oblivion when we die. What is there to lose by being an atheist and being wrong? When your number is up, it's too late for any do overs.

On the off chance that God exists, do you really think he's gonna be willing to accept you into heaven or whatever, just because you were faking it this whole time as an insurance policy?

 

Please.

 

Why don't you just admit the real reason you go? Because you don't wanna piss off your wife and she wears the pants.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

On the off chance that God exists, do you really think he's gonna be willing to accept you into heaven or whatever, just because you were faking it this whole time as an insurance policy?Please.Why don't you just admit the real reason you go? Because you don't wanna piss off your wife and she wears the pants.

Considering I've never met God, I don't know. If I'm not a pain in his ass, and live an otherwise good life, Then maybe. Not pissing off my wife is a fortunate byproduct. She may hang my balls on the mantle, but I can walk over there and get them back anytime I want.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

Oh, sorry. Was being deliberately vague in order to keep the discussion more general about believer/non-believer or "bi-partisan" relationships.

 

Regarding your more specific questions... I don't really feel OK going deeper into them. Not out of respect for anybody's privacy, but because he knows I post here

 

 

The mistake was mine, Pong. I misunderstood.

 

 

Also:

(Important to know because if they are and are not married, then she's not THAT into her religion, which explains much)

Don't agree with this. Lotsa people who consider themselves deeply religious have premarital sex; there are lotsa non-religious, "sexually liberated" people who don't bone everything that moves just 'cause it's not taboo.

 

If people are horny enough for each other, they will, generally speaking, find a way to have sex, regardless of hurdles or the rationalizations that must be made.

I suppose you are correct and I was jumping to a conclusion a bit. But if someone is deeply religious AND banging an atheist, and with each is a potential deal-breaker by itself, I think it is worth wondering exactly how religious said person is, if they are making two major exceptions for two major potential deal breakers.

 

I've personally known people who changed religions to get married. One can argue that said person wasn't REALLY into their religion just as easily as "love conquers all."

 

it could be purely a physical attraction thing, so when that fizzles, their they're done. It could also be an exotic thing for each, and when the newness wears off, their they're done at that point, too.

"They're," not "their."

 

Thank you, Professor Speakenspell.

[Carrie Mathison]

She may hang my balls on the mantle, but I can walk over there and get them back anytime I want.

LOL, right. Sure you could.

 

It never ceases to amaze, the things people will tell themselves to rationalize their situation.

[Carrie Mathison]

 

"They're," not "their."

Thank you, Professor Speakenspell.

 

I'm not correcting some arcane rule that no one follows. This is something you should've learned in elementary school. You should be embarrassed.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

Yeah. You got me. Mee stoopid. I'm so ashamed. <Insert monkey sounds here>

[Ryn]

Are you two trying to prove Pong's premise?

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

What premise was that again? That apparently I haven't mastered 3rd grade grammar, and that CM has an unhealthy and misanthropic contempt for all of humanity?

 

 

If so, I guess we have.

[Ms. Spam]

The religion distance thing as I call it does not freak me out as much as it does Pong. I know Jews who married Catholics and Atheists that married Southern Baptists. Personally I think they get hitched and religion is like the extras in the marriage. I mean I love a good pot luck. Or social events to help kids "learn" and all the holiday stuff. Just think, you get to celebrate Hanukkah and Christmas! Matzoh balls and ham!

 

What freaks me is politically distant people. I went to school with a really smart guy - like a dude who got a full ride to any university he wanted smart - and he turned out to be a freakishly hippy like dude who is a rock scientist. He lived in a yurt in Taos NM and married a girl who pledged to never shave and for money he sold meteorites online while his hairy girl taught belly dancing. His Mom is also kind of liberal leaning but not enough to really separate herself from the husband who is on the opposite end of the spectrum. His Dad is full blown Tea Party. His truck is plastered with bumper stickers. He asks who you identify with politically before he decides to shake your hand. God help you if you mentioned a Democrat party affiliation. Fox News and talk radio is on his diet. Dinner in high school at his family's house were really hard. They usually ended up in shouting fights until you were in tears and second guessing your liberal arts degree path to be a graphic artist because that was a ***** asshole degree. Now they all lead separate lives. My friend never talks to his Dad and his Mom lives in another bedroom because sometimes you can't sleep with the US flag on every wall and above your bed and 20 bald eagles staring down at you.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

 

The religion distance thing as I call it does not freak me out as much as it does Pong. I know Jews who married Catholics and Atheists that married Southern Baptists. Personally I think they get hitched and religion is like the extras in the marriage. I mean I love a good pot luck. Or social events to help kids "learn" and all the holiday stuff. Just think, you get to celebrate Hanukkah and Christmas! Matzoh balls and ham!

I've seen examples like that, too. But isn't it fair to say when say a Catholics, Jewish person, any variety of Protestant, and non-angry atheist/agnostic hook up, that they really aren't that far apart religiously, too? But what about less likely combinations like Jew/Muslim, Satanist/Catholic, Jehovah's Witness/Buddhist, etc. Those combinations are very unlikely to even associate at all, but hypothetically speaking, if a couple were as extremely far apart as those, I am going to have to say that either one or both are really not THAT into their religion, or that it is just a physical attraction thing that is over riding everything else, but in the long run, all kinds of external stresses (especially friends and family telling them to break up) will cause them to break up.

[Ms. Spam]

I thought about where I would draw a line in the religious sand - as it could be called, and I pretty much decided I couldn't marry a Mormon. Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Southern Baptist or Native American belief systems, even agnostic or atheist would be alright. But Mormons get a great big F NO.

 

I guess it has to do with polygamy and con men who believe in magic underwear. I grew up some in AZ know in my heart that most Mormons are alright and they have that general Golden Rule spirit about living and doing good things. And most of the time religion just fulfills a thing - a void or purpose - that a person needs or it can be a cultural identifier you can attach yourself to like saying you are Jewish in NYC or Catholic in San Antonio.

 

My experiences with Mormons in AZ also included huge families with multiple old cars. No soda or caffeine. Sloppy houses. I do not want that. Being a Mormon with me is like a step up from being a Scientologist. A bs cult

[The Kurgan]

I thought about where I would draw a line in the religious sand - as it could be called, and I pretty much decided I couldn't marry a Mormon. Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Southern Baptist or Native American belief systems, even agnostic or atheist would be alright. But Mormons get a great big F NO.

My Maternal grand parents were both Catholic. Grand father lost his faith over time, she remained faithful to the end. The children were all Catholics, though all lapsed. One of these, an aunt of mine, married a Mormon, albeit kind of a lapsed "jack" Mormon. It caused waves in his family. My aunt actually kept copies of letters sent to her from his Mormon relatives attempting to convince her to convert to Mormonism. My mother's whole side of the family tends to LOATHE Mormons, though this is never conveyed while Mormon uncle is present.

[Ms. Spam]

I had someone tell me once during a spirited argument that I hate Mormons because they are stupid. It kind of boils down to this level in a way.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

You both are citing examples where religions that are extreme in not just believing what they do, but fervently wanting to convert others to their will and way of thinking. You see this in some flavors of Christianity, like Mormonism, but you can also include other religions like radicalized Islam, or the dime a dozen swami cults in the Pacific Northwest and other places that brainwash people into giving up all their money to join and promising "enlightenment." I am not talking about cases where religions passively invite others to see their way of thinking and understand the reason they came to their own spiritual epiphany, but those using coercion, peer pressure, shunning and shaming of family members, and in the worst cases, threat of death. For me personally, that is the type of religion I draw the line at. It's not so much what the religion is, but the level of fanaticism there is around it.

 

But that also proves my point. If you have a couple, each a member of two diametrically opposed religions of equal fanaticism, they may hook up for a while, but in the end it can only end in one of 3 ways: they break up (proving love doesn't conquer all), one converts to the other person's religion (proving my point that said person wasn't really into their religion that much to begin with), or both renounce their religions and possibly their respective family/friends in the process (also proving that neither was really into their religion that much). In the third case, maybe that is a case of love (or lust) conquering religion, but not necessarily all, unless they continue to stay together.

[Destiny Skywalker]

I have a few friends who are Mormon. They're all incredibly nice, dedicated to their faith, and all around good people. But hell to the no on marrying one. I would have to convert, pop out 40 kids, give up wine and coffee, and I'd have to stay home to raise the 40 kids. I think it's the staying home part that really gets me lol.