Ms. Spam Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Obama's really been pushing some stuff lately like first two years of community college funded by the government. Free. Two years. But the catch is it is a community college. What's going to even transfer? HA! Originally school was only for up until grade school. High school was not free and people had to pay for that if they wanted to go on to higher learning. We were the first country to foot the bill for high school education and now decades later no one understands how lucky they are that this is continued for them (minus the endless frickin' testing). There's some other stuff in the speech that is rumoured as well... Let us discuss the "Kenyan"! And what he's done for our country for a year! PS. I'm kinda freaking out about taxes this year. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kurgan Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Obama's really been pushing some stuff lately like first two years of community college funded by the government. Free. Two years. But the catch is it is a community college. What's going to even transfer? HA! Originally school was only for up until grade school. High school was not free and people had to pay for that if they wanted to go on to higher learning. We were the first country to foot the bill for high school education and now decades later no one understands how lucky they are that this is continued for them (minus the endless frickin' testing).This is a f**king TERRIBLE idea. It will not in any way shape or form qualify otherwise uncredentialed youth for a raft of otherwise available jobs they're not qualified for. Employers and HR people will not even look once at it. Even the most mediocre operations seem to think they require years of experience and degrees of not less than Master's level from the most prestigious institutions in the nation for entry level clerical jobs. That's the real problem and this is only going to make that worse. Two year's community college will simply be the new high school - at best a gateway to the academic institutions that the high and mighty actually care about. At worst a throwing away of two more productive years per citizen at the taxpayer's expense with absolutely nothing, NOTHING to show for it. We're light years past the time when we need to review the whole idea of public subsidy of private sector job training. Skilled labor has to start being seen as an investment rather than something provided by big brother to be used and discarded at will. Perhaps they'll stop having such a casual attitude towards it then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 There are quite a few jobs that require you have a certain amount of credits, but don't require a bachelor's degree. I know; I've been turned down for them because I don't have enough credits. I think it's a great idea- I've been slowing working towards my AA for years, but money is tight and sometimes I can't even afford to pay the cost of my community college courses. I would absolutely take advantage of this program if it ever happens. I don't think educating people is ever a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Mathison Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Obama's really been pushing some stuff lately like first two years of community college funded by the government. Free. Two years. But the catch is it is a community college. What's going to even transfer? HA! Originally school was only for up until grade school. High school was not free and people had to pay for that if they wanted to go on to higher learning. We were the first country to foot the bill for high school education and now decades later no one understands how lucky they are that this is continued for them (minus the endless frickin' testing).This is a f**king TERRIBLE idea. It will not in any way shape or form qualify otherwise uncredentialed youth for a raft of otherwise available jobs they're not qualified for. Employers and HR people will not even look once at it. Even the most mediocre operations seem to think they require years of experience and degrees of not less than Master's level from the most prestigious institutions in the nation for entry level clerical jobs. That's the real problem and this is only going to make that worse. Two year's community college will simply be the new high school - at best a gateway to the academic institutions that the high and mighty actually care about. At worst a throwing away of two more productive years per citizen at the taxpayer's expense with absolutely nothing, NOTHING to show for it. We're light years past the time when we need to review the whole idea of public subsidy of private sector job training. Skilled labor has to start being seen as an investment rather than something provided by big brother to be used and discarded at will. Perhaps they'll stop having such a casual attitude towards it then. In practice, I agree with you- that's how it'll end up playing out (assuming a plan like this ever passes, which is basically impossible given the state-driven nature of education). But in theory, I disagree with you. There is a way to make it work. But you have to start from the premise that more education is not necessarily better- rather, the right type of education is better. In other words, simply funding 2 years of community college without further direction is a redistribution, sure.. but it's not a redistribution that actually targets the people that need it. Rather it's a way to line pockets of greedy school administrators with federal subsidy money and fund salaries of middling teachers that would never be otherwise competitive on the job market. Academia gets more $$, everyone else loses. Here's a plan that would actually have a shot at working- instead of just paying for school, give automatic scholarships for students with a 3.0 GPA or higher to trade schools in desirable skills, like HVAC installation, IT networking, oil/gas landsmen, plumbing, welding, nursing and hospice care, and so on. In exchange for those scholarships, mandate a military service requirement or civil service requirement for 2 years. Everyone wins- the government recoups their investment and the student gains a skill where they can actually find a job. Oh wait? We already have that.. with the GI Bill, ROTC, and the service academies? And people would still rather just loan out $100k to get a BA in transgender studies, than do ROTC, have college completely paid for, commission as an Officer with a guaranteed middle class federal salary and major in something useful like engineering? Hmm. You have to start from a different premise LK. Not all education is worth investing in, but some is. However, we can easily spot the problem- we have the mainstream liberal's opinion right above mine- "I don't think educating people is ever a bad idea." Spoken like someone that never understood the meaning of throwing good money after bad. And so here we are, again and again. Different year, same problems, same bad solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I wish I could like Carrie's post 300 times, but my liberal arts degree left me too deficient in math and other desirable skills to count that high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kurgan Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Actually I quite like Carrie's plan. It seems thought out, as opposed to the kinds of sound-bite platitudes that get good press these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destiny Skywalker Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I'm hearing we're going to tax 529 savings plans again. Glad I didn't get in on that bandwagon. My friends are all wigging out on Facebook. Obama does seem like he's kinda gone crazy. He's lame duck so he's just pushing through every crazy idea he can, and not caring who he pisses off. I don't like being a snob about education, but yes, too many worthless BA degree programs out there that do nothing to prepare you for an actual job in the field. We really need to revamp the university system. Research is great, but students need to learn practical skills for a career. AA degrees are already nearly worthless, unfortunately. Free community college would make it even more so. I think community college needs to become trade school, because for some dumb reason, almost no one wants to invest in training for trades, but they'll invest 2 years in just taking random requirements in hope of transferring to a large, 4-year university where you're just completely behind the curve because you're taking major-related courses with freshmen, IF you manage to get in as a transfer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavonis Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 ... students need to learn practical skills for a career.Absolutely. It would certainly help if students came in to university with a goal in mind, and the dedication to stick to it to the end. Half come in without any idea of what career they want, the other half come in with unrealistic career goals. Most of them would be better off getting a job first, then coming back with some idea of what they want from an education based on their real-life experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Obama does seem like he's kinda gone crazy. He's lame duck so he's just pushing through every crazy idea he can, and not caring who he pisses off.The best theory I've heard is that he is just trolling the GOP, since he knows 90% of this has zero chance of actually coming into fruition, but up until the 2016 election it forces them to say "NOOOOoooo!" a lot and will cause their crazies to act... more crazy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerina Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Here in Texas, if you get a 2 year degree (AS or AA) it serves as your core requirements at any Texas public university. Now they're offering new STEM majors at community colleges where you have to take less liberal artsy core classes and more STEM related classes to transfer. It's a cheaper way to get your first 2 years done. The school I go to is a community college, and this year is the first year they've offered an AS in several engineering disciplines. The only non-STEM requirements are English Comp 1 & 2, Federal Government, and Texas Government. Everything else is STEM related (Calc 1-3, Differential Equations, Mechanics & Heat, Programming for Engineers, Electrical Circuits, etc.), and it all has to transfer to satisfy the freshman and sophomore requirements of any 4 year engineering program. Other than all that, the school has a variety of AAS and certificate programs that are basically trade programs. There's a real emphasis on Health Science and Energy and Manufacturing down here, because Houston. Honestly, I could go on and on about the education problems our country has, but I'll keep it brief. Our problems begin in kindergarten and snowball through adulthood. Much of it can be traced to money and politics (but what can't, really). Too much emphasis is placed on academic memorization and regurgitation of facts and not enough on the process of learning, critical thinking, creativity, research, and critical life skills like decision making, problem solving, cooperation/collaboration, organization and time management. A lot of those skills are learned organically in early childhood, mostly through unrestricted play, but we're denying our children all of that in favor of higher test scores at earlier ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destiny Skywalker Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Cerina, if you're going into engineering, take the programming class seriously, not just as a requirement you need to slog through. Also, if they offer FORTRAN, take it. The vast majority of engineering programming still happens in FORTRAN, because it's been around forever, even if the computer science weenies laugh at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest El Chalupacabra Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Here's another thing, once we start offering free tuition at the community college or junior college level, guess what? That becomes the new high school. Those AA/AS/AAS degrees, which have marginal worth right now, will be rendered absolutely useless, once they become free because once everyone has one, you have the problem of overcredentialization. Before you know it, you will need a bachelors just to qualify for jobs you just need high school diploma or associates degrees now, a masters for bachelors jobs, PhDs for Masters, and so on. So, like raising the minimum wage at McD's to something ridiculous like $15/hour thereby devaluing all the non-minimum wage/Sub $15/hour jobs elsewhere and the economic scale adjustment that must follow to keep those people happy, offering free AAs to anyone who wants doesn't fix anything, it just devalues the degrees, causing people to go out and get a credential they don't need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerina Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 After our interview (thanks again) I've actually been looking at the programming classes offered to see if what else, if anything, I can fit into the schedule. And I've been meaning to ask you if there was a specific language I should be looking at. The class offered is specifically geared toward engineering. There's also an engineering econ class in the requirements. I'm already signed up for macro econ this semester; I'm debating taking micro as well and then the engineering econ. My entire philosophy of education has changed so much in the past 6 months or so. Since my stepmom offered to help me pay for my classes, I'm really looking at taking classes for the knowledge and experience gained, not just for the credential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerina Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Here's another thing, once we start offering free tuition at the community college or junior college level, guess what? That becomes the new high school. Those AA/AS/AAS degrees, which have marginal worth right now, will be rendered absolutely useless, once they become free because once everyone has one, you have the problem of overcredentialization. Before you know it, you will need a bachelors just to qualify for jobs you just need high school diploma or associates degrees now, a masters for bachelors jobs, PhDs for Masters, and so on. So, like raising the minimum wage at McD's to something ridiculous like $15/hour thereby devaluing all the non-minimum wage/Sub $15/hour jobs elsewhere and the economic scale adjustment that must follow to keep those people happy, offering free AAs to anyone who wants doesn't fix anything, it just devalues the degrees, causing people to go out and get a credential they don't need.And $50K in debt. Don't forget that part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest El Chalupacabra Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 That, too Cerina. And not to mention community colleges were created specifically for people who couldn't afford university or private college. Community colleges, in the grand scheme of things, are very, very doable for almost anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destiny Skywalker Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 And I've been meaning to ask you if there was a specific language I should be looking at. The class offered is specifically geared toward engineering.Really, any language is going to be helpful because it should teach you the principles of programming. What's an object, class, etc. I just got talked into taking C++ instead of FORTRAN because the moron computer science major I was dating freshman year said FORTRAN was a dead language and it was laughable that they offered it. What killed me was it was a class for computer scientists that they forced the engineers to take because we should know how to program. It was very over my head and not a good introduction class. Coding is admittedly my biggest weakness as an engineer. I can do some stuff with Visual Basic, but big programs are tough for me. Wish I had put more into it in college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolence Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Maybe this is me being pretentious with my worthless Masters degree, but I've never met an employer who cared one bit about a 2 year community college degree. Almost a waste of money among employers I've spoken to. If we're going to trim some fat off of education, I'd rather see us lop a year off of four year degrees and cover the truly essential curriculum in three years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerina Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 It depends on the field. If you're looking for a job as a physical therapist, then a 2 year degree is perfect. If you need an accountant, obviously it's not going to cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destiny Skywalker Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 If we're going to trim some fat off of education, I'd rather see us lop a year off of four year degrees and cover the truly essential curriculum in three years.I can't disagree with that. Western Civilization 1 and 2, French Language 202, Composition and Rhetoric, and Science Fiction in Film (Humanities elective) pretty much contributed nothing to my education as an engineer, and pretty much served to bring down my GPA, with the exception of French. Thank God, I got out of another Social Science/Humanities elective and English Literature thanks to the AP exams. For my single free elective, I took a nerdy Space Science class, but I could've taken something worthless. 8 classes, 24 credits. I think the Scientific & Technical Communication course was actually mildly useful for most engineers, so I won't include that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Krawlie Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 My four year degree is worthless. I'm gonna try for a masters but my GPA is shit due to apathy and all my studying for the GMAT hasn't really helped me remember all the math I used to know, so if that doesn't work I'm gonna try for a trade or technical certificate or some kinda shit. I really REALLY wish I had been more practical in school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Nobody wants to hire a guy with a degree in AIDS. whats this world coming to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerina Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 all my studying for the GMAT hasn't really helped me remember all the math I used to know,Khan Academy. It's got everything on there. With videos. Noah and I both use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destiny Skywalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I've been meaning to check that Khan Academy site out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavonis Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 MIT OpenCourseWare is superior to Khan Academy. Wider range of subjects, too. The migration of course content to the Web is a boon for autodidacts, but I'm not certain it benefits most people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destiny Skywalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Yeah, I wanted to see how it compared to the MIT site. I think it's great for review or self-directed learning when you already have a degree and want to take some courses for fun. I was thinking of looking around for coursework to improve my coding skills. But I agree, free Web content isn't going to make a layperson into a practicing engineer, scientist, accountant, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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