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Should People Even Get Married Anymore?


Pong Messiah
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Guest El Chalupacabra

For reals!

 

Dowries are kinda passé nowadays, and when is the last time you heard of an honest-to-goodness shotgun marriage?

 

Both are kind of obsolete terms now, aren't they?

 

 

What sort of incentives are there for it now? Why would anybody even bother getting married?

Mostly for tax breaks, medical insurance, estate planning, family custody rights, government benefits, and other benefits employers offer to spouses, I suppose. Call me cynical, but it seems most of the reasons are money based, to me. I suppose some people still get married because they want to out of love once in a while, but I think in today's society, it's more motivated by money in some way.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

Hey if you guys are happy, all the more power to ya! That's a good thing.

 

I'm not saying marriage is bad or anything, I'm just saying that I think a lot of people believe (true or not) that there is some big financial benefit to getting married. For example, that was a HUGE part of the argument for legalizing gay marriage: the argument being that it was discriminating against gay and lesbian people because they didn't have the same access to tax breaks, medical insurance, etc.

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Also I just saw a student at the grocery store I used to teach and is now in college. He got some girl knocked up. I told him to hold off on getting hitched.

Good for you, Spam. Hopefully she got an abortion in time before everybody's life was ruined!

 

OMG! I wouldn't go that far. San Antonio is highly Catholic and highly Hispanic. The parents are mortified he hasn't set a date before the baby is born. No aborting here. He doesn't want to get hitched because they'd earn too much money and he'd have to pay for the baby instead of medicaid to be born. He's getting pressure to marry or go in the military. I said to him that marriage is a stupid institution and to finish school first (he has two years of school for his engineering degree left). But what do I know about marriage? I mean my mom was married nine times and I wanted to be a beard for a gay guy.

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Why should you get married? Because if (and this is an important if) you have a good partner, it makes your life way easier. There's all the aforementioned financial benefits, as well as the benefit of shared work towards long-term goals like raising a family, preparing for retirement, etc. And, honestly, if you have a good partner, it's nice to not be lonely. Raising a family alone is difficult, as well as things like maintaining a household are easier when you have 2 people to share responsibilities. When you have that commitment to each other (legal or spiritual), it takes some of the stress off, and keeps one of you from losing your crap over something silly and bailing. I know it's cheesy, but your spouse should be your best friend. They should be someone you trust absolutely, and someone who has a shared vision of what your lifestyle will be like. It's usually when one of those 2 things are out of whack that a marriage goes sour.

 

Mostly for tax breaks, medical insurance, estate planning, family custody rights, government benefits, and other benefits employers offer to spouses, I suppose.

It doesn't have to be financial motivation. A lot of it is just plain practical. There are legal ways to do almost all of this (the employer and gov't benefits stuff not so much) without getting married, but a marriage certificate is a lot cheaper than a lawyer. If you're going to have a family and one of you wants to stay home with the kids, marriage absolutely makes sense because one spouse will be doing the majority of the providing while the other takes cares of the household. I know lots of guys who actually want their wives to stay home because they think it makes their lives easier to not have to deal with all of the household stuff. They justify it with being the breadwinner, therefore they need to concentrate on work. As the primary caregiver, you need to be protected financially and legally in the event your breadwinner is incapacitated or dies, or they're just a jerk and want to leave you high and dry. You can argue that this is all financial, but I see it as practical. Then again I think my family is a bunch of morons when it comes to handling their finances.

 

He doesn't want to get hitched because they'd earn too much money and he'd have to pay for the baby instead of medicaid to be born. He's getting pressure to marry or go in the military. I said to him that marriage is a stupid institution and to finish school first (he has two years of school for his engineering degree left).

This whole thing just makes me want to get ranty (not necessarily at you, Spam, but at his family).

1. He's in school but they would earn too much money if they got married before the baby was born? How the hell does that work? Or is he talking about leaving the baby and babymama on medicaid forever while he has a cush job post-graduation? If so, a-hole. Grow up, take responsibility, and raise your spawn. I can understand the medicaid thing if he's staying in school, but I would be surprised if he makes enough money while in school.

2. He should absolutely finish school. He will have a much better livelihood if he does (especially with an engineering degree). I have a friend who quit school because his wife got pregnant and she told him to get a job... as a Popeye's Chicken manager. That was a great financial decision for their future! But there's no reason why marriage has to come before or after, as long as you're not stupid like my friend. They're not really connected in anyway. He should marry her because he wants to, when he wants to. The only reason my husband and I didn't get married sooner is because his family would've cut him off the moment he got married because they think you need to start popping out babies the second you get married and you need to be financially responsible for your own family. Boy, were they annoyed when we waited 4 years!

3. Why is it get married or join the military? Is this like hiding the pregnant chick at the convent back in the day, only it's hiding the babydaddy in the military?

 

 

I'm perfectly happy to just be loved and devoted without getting a bit of paper from the government.

So, my MIL is in a bit of a reverse situation. We think she actually made a pretty poor financial decision by getting married. Unfortunately, she doesn't think ahead (or consult anyone, for that matter) before making major life decisions, so she got married this summer and told us 3 days later. Her primary motivation for getting married was good old Christian guilt about shacking up outside of marriage. If she had talked to us, we would have encouraged her to talk to her pastor about having a religious marriage ceremony without a government marriage certificate. Now, she's furiously working on a post-nup to secure their various estates because he wants to make tons of changes to their home, that was supposed to go to us, and he refuses to pay for it unless a portion goes to his heirs (who he's actually estranged from, so wtf).
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It's nice to hear something positive, Destiny!

I read this yesterday, with all the reasons men aren't getting married anymore, and it made things sound rather dire:

  • You'll lose respect (used to be getting married made you a "Grown Up Man," now it lowers your social status.
  • You'll lose out on sex (cohabiting partners give more sex and are less likely to gain weight)
  • You'll lose friends (both husband and wife lose friends, but men typically lose more by proportion, due to being less social)
  • You'll lose space. (women take over the house and banish "man spaces" to the attic, basement, etc.)
  • You could lose your kids, and your money, and in court (typical stuff about what happens in divorce and who usually gets the kids/money)
  • Single life is better than ever (blah blah blah):
While the value of marriage to men has declined, the quality of single life has improved. Single men were once looked on with suspicion, passed over for promotion for important jobs, which usually valued "stable family men," and often subjected to social opprobrium. It was hard to have a love life that wasn't aimed at marriage, and premarital sex was risky and frowned upon. Now, no one looks askance at the single lifestyle, dating is easy, and employers probably prefer employees with no conflicting family responsibilities. Plus, video games, cable TV, and the Internet provide entertainment that didn't used to be available. Is this good for society? Probably not, as falling birth rates and increasing single-motherhood demonstrate. But people respond to incentives. If you want more men to marry, it needs to be a more attractive proposition.

 

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Guest El Chalupacabra

 

It doesn't have to be financial motivation. A lot of it is just plain practical. There are legal ways to do almost all of this (the employer and gov't benefits stuff not so much) without getting married, but a marriage certificate is a lot cheaper than a lawyer. If you're going to have a family and one of you wants to stay home with the kids, marriage absolutely makes sense because one spouse will be doing the majority of the providing while the other takes cares of the household. I know lots of guys who actually want their wives to stay home because they think it makes their lives easier to not have to deal with all of the household stuff. They justify it with being the breadwinner, therefore they need to concentrate on work. As the primary caregiver, you need to be protected financially and legally in the event your breadwinner is incapacitated or dies, or they're just a jerk and want to leave you high and dry. You can argue that this is all financial, but I see it as practical. Then again I think my family is a bunch of morons when it comes to handling their finances.

I agree with that, but practicality and financial reasons really do blur. I think it depends on if the couple is planning on having kids or not. Personally, I see no reason to get married other than financial reasons, if you don't want kids. If they are planning on having kids, then yeah, it really does make sense to get married from not just a financial, but practical standpoint. I'm not saying people who get married don't love each other, I am just saying that there is a lot more of a financial motivation to it, than maybe people are willing to admit to themselves, because they think that's a bad thing to admit. So they just say they married for love only. And I am not saying people who get married solely for financial or pragmatic reasons are doing it for the wrong reason, either.

 

 

 

It never mattered to me. It was a big deal to the wife though, so we did it.

I think a LOT of guys would probably say the same thing. I think women are way more into weddings and marriage than guys are. Not saying that all guys aren't into marriage and weddings, but I think more often than not, the guy is getting married more to make the girl happy or it makes financial sense, than because they NEED to get married. Girls have that pounded in their heads, a lot of times by their moms, that they NEED to get married, and NEED to have kids.

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Destiny, from what I could gather from the brief convo we had was that he works full time while in college but his parents pay for school so he is not getting school loan debt (it helps he chose UTSA as a school because it is not so expensive for his parents). He wants to marry her but he thinks it is better if they wait until he graduates and gets a job. Since he only has two years he wants her to have the baby and stuff and he's hoping medicaid will help as opposed to marrying and joining the military to provide for her as the parents say they won't help with this mistake. She's two years his junior and just graduated from high school and he is kind of afraid she's getting preggo just so she can get out of the house of her domineering parents as her grades and wants in life are definitely not college/get a job related. He thought she was on birth control. So I can definitely see a kind of second guessing about doing normal conventional stuff.

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While the value of marriage to men has declined, the quality of single life has improved. Single men were once looked on with suspicion, passed over for promotion for important jobs, which usually valued "stable family men," and often subjected to social opprobrium. It was hard to have a love life that wasn't aimed at marriage, and premarital sex was risky and frowned upon. Now, no one looks askance at the single lifestyle, dating is easy, and employers probably prefer employees with no conflicting family responsibilities.

 

This. Companies want people with no social or familial responsibilities. An unattached worker will work more hours and fully dedicate themselves to work, instead of cutting out after 40 hours to spend time with family, or have to take off for a kid's doctor appointment or sick day.

 

I agree with that, but practicality and financial reasons really do blur. I think it depends on if the couple is planning on having kids or not. Personally, I see no reason to get married other than financial reasons, if you don't want kids. If they are planning on having kids, then yeah, it really does make sense to get married from not just a financial, but practical standpoint.

I would agree that kids are the primary motivator. If you don't have kids, then finances are a major consideration. I think you're financially stronger when you share that with someone, but it also depends on if one of you is a hot financial mess.

 

 

 

It never mattered to me. It was a big deal to the wife though, so we did it.

I think a LOT of guys would probably say the same thing. I think women are way more into weddings and marriage than guys are. Not saying that all guys aren't into marriage and weddings, but I think more often than not, the guy is getting married more to make the girl happy or it makes financial sense, than because they NEED to get married. Girls have that pounded in their heads, a lot of times by their moms, that they NEED to get married, and NEED to have kids.

 

I won't deny that there's a biological aspect there. I think my husband is probably the exception rather than the rule. He really wanted kids and was ready before I was. It didn't get to the point where it was put up or shut up, but he definitely wanted kids and wanted them before I was ready. I, however, wanted the second kid before he did. But a lot of that is because I'm sort of cold-blooded and pragmatic and wanted to keep the kids an ideal chronological distance apart. Fortunately, we agree that we're done with kids, which I thought was going to be a harder sell. He always says he wants a passel of kids, but I think 2 kids have shown him how much harder 2 kids are than 1, and a pack of children is not going to be easy to manage financially, emotionally, or pragmatically.

 

 

Destiny, from what I could gather from the brief convo we had was that he works full time while in college but his parents pay for school so he is not getting school loan debt (it helps he chose UTSA as a school because it is not so expensive for his parents). He wants to marry her but he thinks it is better if they wait until he graduates and gets a job. Since he only has two years he wants her to have the baby and stuff and he's hoping medicaid will help as opposed to marrying and joining the military to provide for her as the parents say they won't help with this mistake. She's two years his junior and just graduated from high school and he is kind of afraid she's getting preggo just so she can get out of the house of her domineering parents as her grades and wants in life are definitely not college/get a job related. He thought she was on birth control. So I can definitely see a kind of second guessing about doing normal conventional stuff.

Joining the military would probably be a financial mistake, given that he's going into engineering. If he was going into another major, then yeah, it might make sense. He will make a lot less in the military as an engineer. There are some things that the military provides for, but I would say that isn't going to be the case forever. I think being military will be a lot less appealing soon. Unfortunate situation for him. Hopefully in the future he'll keep it wrapped and not depend on someone else for birth control. Sorry to be scornful, but I think you're responsible for your own decisions, and you have to deal with the fallout. It's going to be a fun 2 years figuring out how to provide for her and his child and finish his schooling, but he needs to see it through.
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This. Companies want people with no social or familial responsibilities. An unattached worker will work more hours and fully dedicate themselves to work, instead of cutting out after 40 hours to spend time with family, or have to take off for a kid's doctor appointment or sick day.

Yes. I think "family man" used to mean "somebody with a family to support (sole breadwinner) who will show up every day and stick with us until retirement because he doesn't want his family to be living on the streets."

 

Today, with how much people move around and change careers, I think the focus has switched to getting as much as humanly possible from your employers while they are with you, before they inevitably leave for greener pastures.

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I think people would move around less if that wasn't the model, though. At my company, we have a lot of "lifers", because the benefits were good. Every time you lose someone with 10+ years of experience, that's a loss, IMO, because you need to retrain their replacement, and knowledge is lost. I think my company is going to see a whole lot less "lifers", with all of the changes that are happening. My husband has noticed that almost all of his managers and executives are divorced. They all tell him to go home to his family before he doesn't have one anymore. They put work first, and they paid the price for it.

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My company puts a huge emphasis on life-work balance and family. And has a pretty low turnover rate. Most people who have left my building have moved for promotions or retired after 40 years.

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I think people would move around less if that wasn't the model, though. At my company, we have a lot of "lifers", because the benefits were good. Every time you lose someone with 10+ years of experience, that's a loss, IMO, because you need to retrain their replacement, and knowledge is lost. I think my company is going to see a whole lot less "lifers", with all of the changes that are happening. My husband has noticed that almost all of his managers and executives are divorced. They all tell him to go home to his family before he doesn't have one anymore. They put work first, and they paid the price for it.

Culturally, there is a much stronger focus on finding "fulfilling" work than "stable work that pays the bills" than there was 50 years ago, so I think a higher rate of turnover is inevitable no matter what pay and benefits are being offered. Today, if somebody quits their job and goes back to college to finish their degree in... whatever ... at age 44, people are less likely to scoff and label it a selfishly irresponsible midlife crisis than praise them for finally "following their dreams."

 

That said, while I believe culture, technology, etc. conspires to make career changes more likely than before, I totally agree with you that more retention could be gained if the model were changed. The amount of hours people are putting in today vs. 40-50 years ago is insane (overtime, working from home, etc.). In general, I prefer the present and future, and believe the "good ol' days" were mostly a myth... but in this particular case, perhaps not so much.

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The biggest problem with marriage is that if it goes south for any reason and can't be resolved via couple's counselling or marital therapy, getting out entails a mountain of expense and tearing the fabric of at least two people's lives apart. More if there's children.

 

Plus, there's this unwritten tacit yet widespread view that once a couple marries, this is no longer an emotional (and heaven FORBID it be a physical) relationship and instead "matures" into something like a business partnership. It starts to be about who's turn it is to do the dishes, who pays for what and so forth. It's not out of the question for romantic or even erotic passion to survive the nuptials, and it does for many, but to do so defies a lot of cultural assumptions about what marriage entails.

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The Times recently had an article about how the 50% divorce rate is a myth. Apparently it never actually got that high and it is dropping.

 

I think a big part is a combination of what Kurgan said about expectations combined with the fact that people think they're owed a happy, easy life. They expect marriage to be loveless, and therefore don't work to avoid that result, and then they decide they deserve better.

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