Bill Mahar, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck and Islam: Liberal shakedown

[The Kurgan]

This has drifted onto my Facebook newsfeed from a few different angles now.

Long story short - Sam Harris and Bill Mahar assert that Islam is fundamentally barbaric - a "motherlode of bad ideas" while Ben Affleck and, to a lesser extent, Nicholas Kristoff retort that these assertions are "racist" and "Islamophobic."

What's remarkable about this though is that it's come down my newsfeed from a few sources now in articles asking hard questions about what it means to be "liberal." Salon, the L.A Times, the Daily Beast, among others, framing the issue in terms of defining what modern liberalism actually means. Sam Harris himself asks whether liberalism can be saved from itself, while others praised Affleck.

 

Carrie Mathison has suggested elsewhere (I'm sure she has the links!) that issues like free speech vs. political correctness in liberalism could become contentious issues in the future. Personally, I find myself at loggerheads with other liberals over things like censorship far more often than conservatives, something I would have considered unthinkable 25 years ago. Could this exchange have been a flash point of sorts?

[Guest]

The side that isn't getting much attention: a well known atheist makes comments against a religion and anyone is surprised? I don't like Bill Maher at all, but at least he's showing consistency in his beliefs.

[Burt]

Ha, Sam Harris vs. Ben Affleck is a really lop-sided debate.

[Good God a Bear]

I think I am Affleckophobic

[Tex]

I think the difference between liberals who tolerate Islam and liberals who demoize it depends on how zionist they are. The jew controlled media will do anything they can to denounce Islam so they can justify Israel's eternal war with the Palestinians (among other things).

[Ms. Spam]

Millennials are going to WREX0R this campaign season. If they remember to vote.

[Carrie Mathison]

I think the difference between liberals who tolerate Islam and liberals who demoize it depends on how zionist they are. The jew controlled media will do anything they can to denounce Islam so they can justify Israel's eternal war with the Palestinians (among other things).

What the f-ck are you talking about? You know it is possible to both point out that Islamic Civilization is barbaric, and not be a supporter of Israel, right? You are making a false dichotomy where you are either "for" Islam, or "for" Zionism.. well, did you ever take, like 3 seconds of thought to realize you can be against both?

 

My god, you're displaying some real chimpanzee levels of intelligence here.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

The side that isn't getting much attention: a well known atheist makes comments against a religion and anyone is surprised? I don't like Bill Maher at all, but at least he's showing consistency in his beliefs.

Yeah but in this case, is he wrong? I think not.

 

Let's look at the main argument: Liberal Principles ARE lacking in the Muslim world. Of the three Abrahamic religions, its Islam that hasn't undergone a major reformation in the way of equality of people. In fact, freedom of speech, freedom of religion without fear of violence, freedom to leave a religion without fear of harm, equality for women, equality for homosexuals, equality for minorities are not just liberal policies in the sense of the modern political left, but they are LIBERAL policies in the sense of the philosophy that was born out of the Age of Enlightenment, the American Revolution, the French Revolution, social liberalism, the women's suffrage movement, and the civil rights movements. These aren't just ideals that are owned by democrats and liberals, these are ideals that are largely embraced by the democratic nations around the world. Sure there are Muslims out there that are every bit as for these liberal principals as anyone else, but it IS fair to say they are in the minority, and they are often silenced, or afraid to speak up...even in the US.

 

Unlike Europe, the modern incarnation of Islam, has never had an "Age of Enlightenment," or any large scale movement where personal liberty and equality for all was at its forefront, and is the only of the three Abrahamic Religions that haven't. I say modern incarnation of Islam, because there was a time where Islam was more enlightened and more tolerant. For example, in the Middle Ages, Islam was the keeper of the sciences, mathematics, and philosophies of the Ancients, that Europeans were forbidden by the Church to even study. I think Modern Islam in many ways resembles Christianity, Christendom, and the Catholic Church during the middle ages. We now know that the so-called Arab Spring was NOT a revolution of reform that promoted human rights and ideals, but rather was the rise of Jihadis and Fundamental Islamists filling the power vacuum left in the wake of the destabilization of the middle east after the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflicts since 2001.

 

Maher (whom I think is a pompous ass BTW) outlines at the beginning of this video what he believes are the cornerstones of liberal ideals and what liberals (which are things that IMHO, all people, politically left and right)should stand up for. I think it is important to recognize that oftentimes Muslims, moderate or fundamentalist alike, often find themselves in opposition to these. I also think its important to honestly look at these points without being shouted down as a racist or bigot, as often is the case:

 

 

Freedom of Speech:

Maher and Harris are correct in saying not just in oppressive regimes like Iran, but even in Islamic enclaves in the heart of the UK and Europe, Muslims largely don't stand up for freedom of speech, including and especially when it criticizes Islam. In extreme cases, the radical Muslims call for the death of the critics of Islam, as what happened a few years ago in Europe with the cartoons mocking Mohammed. In fact, there was no Moderate Muslim voice out there denouncing the radical Muslims, which either indicates they agreed with the radicals, or didn't feel free enough to stand up to them. Either way, that is a problem.

 

Freedom of Religion without fear of violence/freedom to leave a religion without fear of harm:

Again, Maher & Harris are correct. Name a middle eastern Islamic theocracy in which you can practice religion out in the open and without fear of reprisal? Try being openly a Christian in Tehran, Baghdad, parts of Pakistan, Afghanistan, or Syria and see what happens.

 

Equality for minorities

While Islam might be tolerant of non-Arabs, there are definitely ethnic groups that are not welcome in Islamic theocracies, namely the obvious: Jewish and to a lesser extent people from Europe and America. Even in more moderate Islamic Nations like Saudi Arabia, tolerance of these groups only goes so far, and they face discrimination that easily rivals being black in the US southern states during the Jim Crow era.

 

Equality for women:

I am just absolutely shocked at this one. Why have modern feminists remained largely silent on this issue? Try being a woman in an Islamic theocracy. I think there can be a case made that women in the Islamic world almost suffer from a form of Stockholm syndrome. In most cases, women are second class citizens who either can't vote or own property (either legally or are intimidated into not doing so), they are largely almost always expected to be subservient to a man, a Muslim man often has the right to be emotionally, physically, and sometimes sexually abusive if a woman doesn't do what he says, and in many parts of the Islamic World (even in the US), if a woman doesn't cover her body appropriately (minimum a head scarf, but sometimes a full on burka), there will be repercussions. Where are the feminists en masse, who are largely liberal, on this issue? Why aren't there female students in the womens studies departments in universities across the US and Europe opposing these oppressive tactics by Islam, and raising more awareness to this inequality of women?

 

Equality for homosexuals:

If women have it bad in the Islamic world, then gays and lesbians definitely have it way worse. In many parts of the Islamic world, one can be killed for simply being homosexual. Sure, that is the case anywhere, and it is true that in the US this can happen, but not to the extent or in the extreme as in a Muslim theocracy. In such countries, you have religious leaders who are also government leaders calling for the out and out extinction of homosexuals. To be fair, it hasn't been all that long that homosexuals in our own country have been able to feel free to be themselves out in the open, but here's a serious question: Considering this week, the US Supreme Court, by refusing to overrule 9th Circuit ruling that laws banning same sex marriage were unconstitutional in effect legalizes gay marriage (or at least doesn't prevent it), how many years, indeed centuries, if ever, will it be before any nation in the Islamic world accepts gay marriage?

[Guest]

I agree that he's right, but I don't think it matters.

 

The exact same people who love when he says anything negative about Christianity are upset because he dared to say something about Islam.

 

He's an atheist. Being an atheist means that you don't believe in any god, not just that you're mad because Christianity.

[Tex]

You know it is possible to both point out that Islamic Civilization is barbaric, and not be a supporter of Israel, right?

 

Really? No way. I think you're just making that up. You almost had me there. Whew.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

I agree that he's right, but I don't think it matters.

 

The exact same people who love when he says anything negative about Christianity are upset because he dared to say something about Islam.

 

He's an atheist. Being an atheist means that you don't believe in any god, not just that you're mad because Christianity.

I agree with you here, but I think that in part, that is his point. He was directing the message to people who say they stand for liberal principles, and many liberals are also atheist. I think what he is saying to these liberals, atheist or not, is be intellectually honest. If you criticize Christianity and complain about the interference of church with state, and also say you stand for civil rights, etc, then you must also criticize Islam. Not embrace it without question just because it is a minority culture(at least in the US) to appear "inclusive."

[Pong Messiah]

Bill Maher has been pretty outspoken about all cultures not being "equal, just different," so I wasn't surprised to see this argument take place.

A lot of people who call themselves liberals/progressives have a real hangup about criticizing non-white/Western/Christian societies because a cornerstone of their belief system (whether consciously acknowledged or not) holds that "the other" isn't bad or inferior in any way. It is merely "different." And if "the other" is behaving badly, it's simply a natural and understandable reaction to colonialism or other white/Western/Christian tomfoolery. More understanding, dialogue, and apologies are needed!

 

I did not take the comments about Islam to be bigoted toward people so much as the state of the religion and its affect on culture. It is about a belief system affecting the behavior of human beings. If the argument had been that Middle Easterners were simply a naturally violent and oppressive bunch and Islam a symptom of their state, that would be offensive, and Affleck's sputtering would prolly be more justified.

 

Maher is definitely a liberal/progressive in many ways, but has never worried about criticizing anything center, left, or right (especially right!) that he finds annoying, stupid, or dangerous. He was one of the first comedians to start making Obama jokes, which at the time (when Obama was still the "second coming") would cause his own audience to boo him.

[Tex]

I did not take the comments about Islam to be bigoted toward people so much as the state of the religion and its affect on culture. It is about a belief system affecting the behavior of human beings. I

I agree with this. Same way with the Christians. They're fair game, too.

 

On the other hand anything said about the Jews and their affect on culture is at the very least politically incorrect and at worst blatant antisemitism.

 

I know Maher's an atheist but I've often seen him scoff at criticism of the liberal media, which is strongly influenced (some would say controlled) by Zionist Jews.

 

I just found it funny that a card carrying liberal like Ben Affleck threw a monkey wrench into Maher's show, even though his point was as misguided as his delivery was awkward.

[Pong Messiah]

On the other hand anything said about the Jews and their affect on culture is at the very least politically incorrect and at worst blatant antisemitism.

 

wut

 

There are lotsa libruls [especially in academia; even jewish ppl1] who have bigtime prblems with israel

 

ofc there are people who will scream 'amtisemitism111' everytime anything even sligltly critical of isarel or jewish cultre is utterd, but its not like crictsims is verboten on the left. not sure where u getting this

 

omg if anythin would say modrn libarls identify more wiht and are mor sympatheticc to palstine ppl s

[pavonis]

You having a stroke, Pong?

[Ms. Spam]

I lose patience typing on a phone.

[Tex]

Ironic. Dr Spam SAVES patients typing on his phone.

[The Kurgan]

Bill Maher has been pretty outspoken about all cultures not being "equal, just different," so I wasn't surprised to see this argument take place.

 

A lot of people who call themselves liberals/progressives have a real hangup about criticizing non-white/Western/Christian societies because a cornerstone of their belief system (whether consciously acknowledged or not) holds that "the other" isn't bad or inferior in any way. It is merely "different." And if "the other" is behaving badly, it's simply a natural and understandable reaction to colonialism or other white/Western/Christian tomfoolery. More understanding, dialogue, and apologies are needed!

The driving force behind a lot of liberal and progressive activism these days is white male guilt. That's why there's so much of this. The value system of the liberal/progressive person is against unearned privilege and inequality and guess what: if you're studying (or teaching) social science or critical theory in an Ivy league college, and blogging about it on the side, you're kinda privileged. Not exactly Donald Trump, mind you, but you've got it pretty damn good. It's exponentially easier to condemn others for sins you are guilty of than it is when you are truly innocent.

 

I did not take the comments about Islam to be bigoted toward people so much as the state of the religion and its affect on culture. It is about a belief system affecting the behavior of human beings. If the argument had been that Middle Easterners were simply a naturally violent and oppressive bunch and Islam a symptom of their state, that would be offensive, and Affleck's sputtering would prolly be more justified.

That's it, I think. There's been nothing comparable to a "reformation" and/or an "enlightenment" in Islam, and perhaps some aspects of the religion mitigate against that. I do think Affleck and Co. make some points, though. Religious movements do not arise and exist in a vacuum. The geo-political context of a middle east that has been fought over by great powers for a long time now can't be ignored here. Jihadism is, at heart, a kind of protest against the enlightenment values of a west they see as an invader and meddler in their affairs. Protest has a funny way of following a path of least resistance - their wrath is vented against easy targets that represent, on some level, the western powers they hate: liberated girls learning how to read and so forth, since the actual halls of power in the western world are not accessible to them. This doesn't make them okay, of course. They're horrendous and barbaric in the extreme. I'm not saying take a knee jerk leftist "blame the west" kind of approach either. But stepping back and looking at the bigger picture, blaming it all on religion is just another absurdly reductionistic, easy answer. The bible has some pretty barbaric stuff in it too, but that's not followed in the western world, nor even advocated in any mainline Christian denomination. The reasons for this may be worth exploring.

 

Maher is definitely a liberal/progressive in many ways, but has never worried about criticizing anything center, left, or right (especially right!) that he finds annoying, stupid, or dangerous. He was one of the first comedians to start making Obama jokes, which at the time (when Obama was still the "second coming") would cause his own audience to boo him.

That's what I like about Maher. "No enemy to the left" is absurd and dishonest, and he's a rare leftist pundit who has no problems saying that.

[Copper]

I feel like such a bad liberal: I don't care either way about Israel or Palestine.

 

IMO there is no solution that can be peaceable. So just let them blow each other away to oblivion.

[Odine]

I have more sympathy for the one with the smaller stick.

[Justus]

I think the difference between liberals who tolerate Islam and liberals who demoize it depends on how zionist they are. The jew controlled media will do anything they can to denounce Islam so they can justify Israel's eternal war with the Palestinians (among other things).

You would be a jaw-dropping star at certain Hollywood fundraisers.....and turned into All That Is Evil before the next sunrise.

[The Kurgan]

You would be a jaw-dropping star at certain Hollywood fundraisers.....and turned into All That Is Evil before the next sunrise.

Kind of like Mel Gibson?

[Justus]

 

You would be a jaw-dropping star at certain Hollywood fundraisers.....and turned into All That Is Evil before the next sunrise.

Kind of like Mel Gibson?

 

Pretty much. There was a time when Gibson could do no wrong, and was the near-eternal fantasy of the People magazine-minded Hollywood lackeys. Then, gas was tossed on the fire with the hysteria over The Passion, followed by his frankly riduculous drunken statements, and it was all downhill from there. The star of many a woman's (and some men) coverboy / online masturbation material became the other All That Is Evil in most media circles.

[Odine]

Pfft.. Mel Gibson kinda deserved it though for being a douche. Then there is Penelope Cruz's and Xavier Bardum(sp)'s petition signatures that got them branded as anti-semitic ***holes and can no longer get work in hollywood. For what? Wanting an Israeli ceasefire. Rediculous