The over testing culture going on in schools today.

[RelentlessMalice]

Right Ender they are assessments that I the students teacher gives to check for understanding. They are not standardized testing with multiple choice questions meant to trick students.

 

My objection is district and state tests not being made by teachers but textbook companies.

 

Students shouldnt be subjected to that many high stakes tests in a goven school year.

[pavonis]

Are you new to the internet?

 

No. My point is, as an admin on a message board, don't you think you should show some competence at insulting the community members? If you're going to burn someone, at least try to do it well, like Carrie. Otherwise, don't bother.

[Cerina]

It would go over your head. So I don't bother.

[Ms. Spam]

RM. I really thought with a central grading program like GradeSpeed, it would lead to shared results and standardized testing would become less. I seem to remember years ago when my Mom quit teaching (She's never owned a computer - you should see her try working out how to answer a smartphone as she still has an old rotary phone) because they introduced computers and the GradeSpeed program was advertised that it was going to make it easier to measure and see comprehensively throughout the school district where the lowest scores were and assist with this. I really think computer reporting is underused as a tool especially with apps and other technological advances that we should even have anything but the "End of Chapter" test to show mastered comprehension of the material. In math especially the beginning of math such a counting and fractions and basic functions are just building blocks of logic that lead to physics, chemistry, drafting, architecture and writing documentation for results in research studies through statistics.

[Ms. Spam]

 

Oh and I am in charge of finding the schools key low scoring questions they consistently miss and developing a program to teach them the skills needed to not miss them. Word problems and graphing.

Life is a word problem.

 

I hate it when college kids come to me and say "Oh, I love X (algebra, calculus, physics, etc) but I hate/can't do/don't get word problems."

 

Yeah. I admit as a lower school teacher, I failed you. But really there's lots of people in college schools of "X" (whatever their focus is on) that shouldn't be there. I struggle with this every year because I'm like WTF student-dude? This math basically boils down to turning a circumstance into a solve for X problem. I can't even begin to understand kids in 4th grade that start bellyaching about word problems. I mean really, eventually this student will either be smart enough to build bridges and need to calculate volume of concrete or what the weight limit of a structure is or figure out how many french fry boxes will fit in a #4 bag or that he's screwed at the end of the month because he chose to buy a "Beats by Dre" headphone instead of pay his rent.

[Cerina]

 

 

 

And this is why I home school now.

 

Well, one of the reasons at least. But the idea of testing is so ingrained in our culture and minds that it's the biggest fight I have with my family now. They all think it's ludicrous that I'm not giving my son tests or grades. Apparently they weren't listening when I was younger and would complain about the standardized tests we had to take.

How do you ascertain your son's knowledge and appropriately adjust your instruction for remediation or enrichment?

 

Seriously? I spend all day every day with him. I actually talk to him and listen when he speaks to me. I listen to him explain to my husband everything he did that day, and I watch him teach the neighbor's kids some of the stuff he learned. I do occasionally "quiz" him verbally, but it's rarely more than one or two questions, and we have been doing comprehensive "projects" at the end of a unit. For example, after learning about animal classification for a couple of weeks, we went on a scavenger hunt at the zoo.

 

Other than watching him teach "some" of the stuff he learned to the neighbors kid (and that is iffy based on the context of everything else you typed), nothing you listed is neither a reliable nor valid form of assessment.

Because it's not a state mandated test? I assess his knowledge based on my own personal experience and knowledge of my kid. Again, I spend all day every single day with him. I know he can read, because he reads. I know he comprehends what he's read, because we talk about it. You don't have to give someone a test to find out what they know. You only believe that because it's your livelihood. Mostly I assess what he's learned through projects, but not always. Sometimes it's through experiences.

 

Take, for example, the scavenger hunt we did at the zoo. We spent about 2 weeks learning about animal characteristics and classification. I could have sat him down at the end and given him a page full of questions like:

 

1. What is the definition of herbivore?

2. What are the defining characteristics of a mammal?

3. How are reptiles and amphibians different?

4. How do claws, fur, and gills help animals survive in their environments?

5. Name 5 different types of animal habitats and give an example of an animal that lives in each.

 

Instead, I took him to the zoo, and made him find me one each of the following:

 

an herbivore

a carnivore

an omnivore

a mammal

a reptile

a bird

a fish

an amphibian

an insect

a cold-blooded animal

a warm-blooded animal

a vertebrate

an invertebrate

an animal with feathers

an animal with gills

an animal with fins

an animal with claws

an endangered animal

an animal that's now extinct in the wild

an aquatic animal

a nocturnal animal

a diurnal animal

an animal that hibernates

an animal that migrates in the winter

an animal that lives in the rainforest

an animal that lives in the desert

an animal that lives in the forest

an animal that lives in freshwater

an animal that lives in the ocean

an animal that lives in swamp lands

an animal that lives in grasslands

 

And we would talk about all of them. "How do you know that this bird is a carnivore?" "Because it has sharp claws! And it says it eats rodents on the sign." "How do baby leopards eat?" "Well, they're mammals so they probably get milk from their mommies!"

 

Way more fun, and probably more likely to stick than just reading, memorizing some definitions, and then regurgitating it back on paper for an arbitrary grade that doesn't tell anybody anything.

 

Testing may be the quicker and dirtier way to assess students when you have 30 of them, but I only have one. So I can devote all my energy into teaching him at his level, using the methods from which he learns best, and ensuring that he can demonstrate in some way what he's learned. And yes, one of the ways he learns best is by observing, so we watch a lot of videos and animations. He's also a kinesthetic learner, so we do a lot of role playing and manipulating.

 

Spam, we do "school" probably only about 3-5 hours a week. That's time we spend actually in our office/schoolroom doing structured activities from the curriculum and books that I've purchased. During that time, we'll read maybe 5-6 picture books (usually non-fiction) and do a small handful of worksheets, crafts, or projects. (We then read more before bedtime. Or he'll read in the car.) Most of our time is spent just living life and learning the really old fashioned way. Noah helps me each week go through our budget, plan our meals, shop for groceries, cook lunch and dinner, and do chores, all skills seriously lacking in many kids today. He has actual responsibilities at home. We also go shopping, on field trips, to the library, and spend a hefty amount of time with his great-grandparents. He gets his socialization the old fashioned way as well, by actually socializing with people, and not just people his own age. At his elementary school they weren't even allowed to talk during lunch. I let him talk to whomever he wants when we're out. He's not limited to only picking up bad habits from the other kids at school. When he is around kids closer to his age at Cub Scouts/Awana/church/park day he will play with them, but not actually talk with them. He prefers to talk to adults. He's not now, or ever has been, so attached to me or his dad that he wouldn't leave our side, and one of us has been home with him full time since he was 3 months old. But I do see some of these kids at some of the events we go to, and they're still the minority.

[Ms. Spam]

Just an FYI: Upper level, that is University level, courses have the least amount of testing. I don't think Pavonis even tests but at the end of the course if even that. I'm currently working on my Masters of Math Ed. and I had to take topology a few semesters ago and I don't think we took one test until the end of the course. The problems we solved were just one problem assigned at the beginning of the class. I've never seen a Chinese man so angry as this professor who taught this course when he had to review basic algebra and was all confused as to why this one girl was in our class for even asking the question. (Thank god it wasn't me! This girl thought she'd tackle this course because a advisor told her it was a great way to get her feet wet in getting her Masters when she was just looking for the extra dollars that come with the degree accorded her in her school district).

[Ms. Spam]

Cerina, I think you get that I'm not dissing you about homeschooling and I know you put a lot of thought into your teaching lessons. Just call me still a homeschool doubter. Just what you said about bad habits learned from other kids trigger something to me. But I do understand.

[Cerina]

I know. I just thought I'd share in case you were curious.

[pavonis]

It would go over your head. So I don't bother.

 

"You don't bother"? Clearly you do bother...and fail miserably. I feel sorry for you.

 

Yeah. I admit as a lower school teacher, I failed you. But really there's lots of people in college schools of "X" (whatever their focus is on) that shouldn't be there. I struggle with this every year because I'm like WTF student-dude? This math basically boils down to turning a circumstance into a solve for X problem. I can't even begin to understand kids in 4th grade that start bellyaching about word problems. I mean really, eventually this student will either be smart enough to build bridges and need to calculate volume of concrete or what the weight limit of a structure is or figure out how many french fry boxes will fit in a #4 bag or that he's screwed at the end of the month because he chose to buy a "Beats by Dre" headphone instead of pay his rent.

I don't think you failed me, at least not you in particular. Students leave high school not really ready for university work. I don't think many people should be going to universities unless they want to learn a lot of stuff. Universities aren't job training centers. That's what tech schools are supposed to be. Universities are about broad knowledge. If they want a job, they should go to a tech school. Get a certificate for welding, or fixing computers or something.

 

I do test regularly. I'd prefer to just give a single final exam, but that's not the academic culture of late. I'd be frowned at for offering only one exam, and the students would scream bloody murder for only having one chance to prove that they know the material. I assign exercises and give them exams because that's what coaches do for their athletes - make them run laps and lift weights so that they improve at what they do. But I don't like taking on students who want to learn physics but then turn around and claim no knowledge of trigonometry, algebra, or calculus. I'm sorry, but that's like wanting to be an NBA player but not having the height for it. If you take a topology course, in fact any mathematics course, you damn well better have mastered the previous material the class is building on. There's no way to learn calculus without algebra and trigonometry, and calculus is not even an advanced mathematics course. If I have to take on a student in calculus who can't do algebra, it's like trying to teach to a brick wall. I have no time to teach algebra on top of calculus!

 

I assess his knowledge based on my own personal experience

How long before you reach your limit of what you can teach him? There's no way you can teach anything above your own understanding.

[Ms. Spam]

Hmmm. You do test more than I thought. Maybe it is just the school I'm in. I've been in this one class since the middle of Sept. and have yet to do a quiz or test but we are going to have a mid-term like test in a couple of weeks. But this class is more writing and researching and doing presentations this semester. I only take a class a semester though as I'm paying for it and doing it debt free and also because I'm in it more for the knowledge than the end-game of a pay bump in my school district.

[Cerina]

I'm hoping by the time he reaches jr. high we'll be able to afford putting him into a specialized private school. If not, I'm confident that I'll be able to teach him all the way through high school, but he'll probably wind up doing dual enrollment at the college here. Though really here in the next year or so I'm going to turn the majority of his learning over to him. I'll be here for guidance. But I'm teaching him learning and research skills starting now so that he'll be able to take control of his own education.

 

But hey, if his subjects surpass my own understanding, then I'm sure you'll still be around here to give me advice from your own experience on the matter.

[pavonis]

And who taught you the research skills you're passing on to your kid?

 

I've had homeschooled kids in my courses. They do OK, a little better than average typically, but they're odd. They think they know everything already. They act like I have nothing to offer them, and they think they can skip ahead in class to material I know they're not ready for. They don't like the classroom environment, and they don't focus well in laboratory activities. They don't work well with others, and I don't allow students to work alone in my laboratory. But that's all just anecdotal evidence.

[Ms. Spam]

This is that socializing thing i was referring to. Every kid is someone's darling extraordinary kid. College is pretty much where unless you're a genius for realz you find your special snowflake melting into slushy H2O. Nothing can protect them from that.

[Cerina]

I can only think of a few teachers that have ever had "anything to offer" me. Mostly I learned all on my own, still do. I'm not, and have never been, well suited for the classroom environment. I can't learn at someone else's pace, so I stop paying attention and will often stop going to class. I don't like busy work, drill n kill, or repetition. That's the only way most teachers I've ever had know how to teach. And I absolutely cannot read along with the class. I can't think of a worse way to torture me than to try to make me read along with a class while they read aloud.

 

I'm an outlier. The typical educational model does not work for me, and I'm not alone.

[Darth Ender]

 

 

 

 

And this is why I home school now.

 

Well, one of the reasons at least. But the idea of testing is so ingrained in our culture and minds that it's the biggest fight I have with my family now. They all think it's ludicrous that I'm not giving my son tests or grades. Apparently they weren't listening when I was younger and would complain about the standardized tests we had to take.

How do you ascertain your son's knowledge and appropriately adjust your instruction for remediation or enrichment?

 

Seriously? I spend all day every day with him. I actually talk to him and listen when he speaks to me. I listen to him explain to my husband everything he did that day, and I watch him teach the neighbor's kids some of the stuff he learned. I do occasionally "quiz" him verbally, but it's rarely more than one or two questions, and we have been doing comprehensive "projects" at the end of a unit. For example, after learning about animal classification for a couple of weeks, we went on a scavenger hunt at the zoo.

 

Other than watching him teach "some" of the stuff he learned to the neighbors kid (and that is iffy based on the context of everything else you typed), nothing you listed is neither a reliable nor valid form of assessment.

Because it's not a state mandated test? I assess his knowledge based on my own personal experience and knowledge of my kid. Again, I spend all day every single day with him. I know he can read, because he reads. I know he comprehends what he's read, because we talk about it. You don't have to give someone a test to find out what they know. You only believe that because it's your livelihood. Mostly I assess what he's learned through projects, but not always. Sometimes it's through experiences.

 

No, I don't believe this because it is my livelihood. I understand assessments because I have two master's degrees in education and currently working on my doctorate in education. I have taught for several years, (including graduate coursework in assessment design) and I am currently a school administrator. Two of my duties are to oversee curriculum development and professional learning for teachers.

 

Your trip to the zoo could have been better. All of those questions were at the lowest level of Bloom's Taxonomy (I would recommend you research this). A better understanding of assessment design could have improved the activity you did at the zoo. The activity you did should have been done at home (to ensure your kid knew a parrot was a bird, a bear is a mammal, etc) through a traditional assessment measure. You could have then used the opportunity at the zoo to ask better questions that develop your child's deeper knowledge of animals and sharpen his critical thinking skills. Possible questions include: How are mammals and reptiles they same? How are they different? Are reptiles better suited for colder or warmer climates and why do you think this? Why do some animals travel in packs?

 

It seems you are trying for authentic assessments, which is fine. I would recommend bie.org as a strong resource for authentic and project based learning. Something many trained educators do with these type of assessments is to go directly to the project. It is essential that students acquire a basic proficiency of skills first. THEN go to work on the project in which they apply these skills in a manner which gives them a much richer understanding of these skills.

 

How do you know your kid is reading at the right level? I would recommend picking up an informal reading inventory (or if you ask nicely I can send you a .pdf copy). Your way of monitoring his development in reading has no reliable data. Thus, you cannot be making the most of development as a reader.

 

You need to design your curriculum through backwards design. You need to design an assessment with the skills you want your child to learn (these are called summative assessments) and THEN design how it will be taught. As you work through your lessons, you need to CONSTANTLY adjust your instruction based off of FORMATIVE assessments. If your have poorly designed assessments, your curriculum will be poorly designed. I could go on...

[pavonis]

Cerina, we don't build social structures around outliers. The American educational model, whatever its problems, has been effective. It's gotten us this far, as a society. If it's failing now, it's not because it's a bad way to teach or to learn. If it's not for everyone, fine, but to impugn it for not being for you is the same as saying classical music is bad because you dislike it.

[Cerina]

Yes, but classical isn't the only of genre available.

[Darth Ender]

Cerina, we don't build social structures around outliers. The American educational model, whatever its problems, has been effective. It's gotten us this far, as a society. If it's failing now, it's not because it's a bad way to teach or to learn. If it's not for everyone, fine, but to impugn it for not being for you is the same as saying classical music is bad because you dislike it.

I don't even think she is an outlier. What Cerina describes are just bad teaching practices that nobody learns from. Not learning from poor pedagogical practices doesn't make someone an outlier, it just makes you average.

[Ms. Spam]

Not befooooore bed. Now i won't be able to stop thinking about work. JK.

 

My rock study had a lot of definitions and pre-lab work exercises but the pay off when they finally got to get hands on at an activity i planned really paid off. Ender's so right.

 

Don't dismiss the course work because of the way you perceive school and your own experiences learning. Think of it as reinforcement of knowledge or something similar. I have kids that are visual learners and others more comfortable with reading/rote learning.

[pavonis]

I can't learn at someone else's pace, so I stop paying attention and will often stop going to class. I don't like busy work, drill n kill, or repetition. That's the only way most teachers I've ever had know how to teach. And I absolutely cannot read along with the class. I can't think of a worse way to torture me than to try to make me read along with a class while they read aloud.

 

I'm an outlier. The typical educational model does not work for me, and I'm not alone.

No one learns at someone else's pace. But if you didn't go to class, how would you know if you could've learned something that day? Life is full of boring, repetitive busy work. Exercise is boring repetitive work, but it's good for you. If you can't do repetition in a classroom, why can you do it in real life? Or do you just not do boring repetitive tasks in real life?

[Cerina]

 

 

 

 

 

And this is why I home school now.

 

Well, one of the reasons at least. But the idea of testing is so ingrained in our culture and minds that it's the biggest fight I have with my family now. They all think it's ludicrous that I'm not giving my son tests or grades. Apparently they weren't listening when I was younger and would complain about the standardized tests we had to take.

How do you ascertain your son's knowledge and appropriately adjust your instruction for remediation or enrichment?

 

Seriously? I spend all day every day with him. I actually talk to him and listen when he speaks to me. I listen to him explain to my husband everything he did that day, and I watch him teach the neighbor's kids some of the stuff he learned. I do occasionally "quiz" him verbally, but it's rarely more than one or two questions, and we have been doing comprehensive "projects" at the end of a unit. For example, after learning about animal classification for a couple of weeks, we went on a scavenger hunt at the zoo.

 

Other than watching him teach "some" of the stuff he learned to the neighbors kid (and that is iffy based on the context of everything else you typed), nothing you listed is neither a reliable nor valid form of assessment.

Because it's not a state mandated test? I assess his knowledge based on my own personal experience and knowledge of my kid. Again, I spend all day every single day with him. I know he can read, because he reads. I know he comprehends what he's read, because we talk about it. You don't have to give someone a test to find out what they know. You only believe that because it's your livelihood. Mostly I assess what he's learned through projects, but not always. Sometimes it's through experiences.

 

No, I don't believe this because it is my livelihood. I understand assessments because I have two master's degrees in education and currently working on my doctorate in education. I have taught for several years, (including graduate coursework in assessment design) and I am currently a school administrator. Two of my duties are to oversee curriculum development and professional learning for teachers.

 

Your trip to the zoo could have been better. All of those questions were at the lowest level of Bloom's Taxonomy (I would recommend you research this). A better understanding of assessment design could have improved the activity you did at the zoo. The activity you did should have been done at home (to ensure your kid knew a parrot was a bird, a bear is a mammal, etc) through a traditional assessment measure. You could have then used the opportunity at the zoo to ask better questions that develop your child's deeper knowledge of animals and sharpen his critical thinking skills. Possible questions include: How are mammals and reptiles they same? How are they different? Are reptiles better suited for colder or warmer climates and why do you think this? Why do some animals travel in packs?

 

It seems you are trying for authentic assessments, which is fine. I would recommend bie.org as a strong resource for authentic and project based learning. Something many trained educators do with these type of assessments is to go directly to the project. It is essential that students acquire a basic proficiency of skills first. THEN go to work on the project in which they apply these skills in a manner which gives them a much richer understanding of these skills.

 

How do you know your kid is reading at the right level? I would recommend picking up an informal reading inventory (or if you ask nicely I can send you a .pdf copy). Your way of monitoring his development in reading has no reliable data. Thus, you cannot be making the most of development as a reader.

 

You need to design your curriculum through backwards design. You need to design an assessment with the skills you want your child to learn (these are called summative assessments) and THEN design how it will be taught. As you work through your lessons, you need to CONSTANTLY adjust your instruction based off of FORMATIVE assessments. If your have poorly designed assessments, your curriculum will be poorly designed. I could go on...

 

I'm very familiar with Bloom's Taxonomy (I studied it in high school actually), and he's reading several levels above where he "should" be (and that has been more formally assessed). But I'm going to agree to disagree with you on the assessments because this conversation isn't going to go anywhere. Standardized testing doesn't necessarily test for anything beyond knowledge and comprehension anyway. We did most of our analysis and synthesis activities at home. Including discussing and diagramming how a reptile and mammal are alike and different (more specifically, my son and a snake) and inventing a new animal and describing it's physical characteristics and how those characteristics relate to its new, made-up environment. I don't completely make up my own curriculum; I did buy a comprehensive one. But I do add to it based on his interests and abilities. The curriculum is project based without repetition, and provides a good framework. It's called Moving Beyond the Page if you want to check it out, but you'll need to look past the font on their website.

 

Thanks for your suggestions though. What can you tell me about creating curriculum for non-typical students? My son is also an outlier. The typical education model doesn't work for him either.

[Cerina]

 

Cerina, we don't build social structures around outliers. The American educational model, whatever its problems, has been effective. It's gotten us this far, as a society. If it's failing now, it's not because it's a bad way to teach or to learn. If it's not for everyone, fine, but to impugn it for not being for you is the same as saying classical music is bad because you dislike it.

I don't even think she is an outlier. What Cerina describes are just bad teaching practices that nobody learns from. Not learning from poor pedagogical practices doesn't make someone an outlier, it just makes you average.

 

Exactly what would you consider an outlier?

[Carrie Mathison]

Also basing my pay on a damn test is frickin' ridiculous. I was hired to teach and I think I do a damn good job at it.

LOL. I don't want any objective standards for measuring my performance! So I can be paid just for showing up to work! And hey, I think I do a good job, so gimme gimme gimme! Give me everything I want.. give me a billion dollars!

 

 

And you wonder why anyone with a real job thinks teachers are overpaid charlatans.

[Ms. Spam]

And you don't wonder why people think you are a jerk.

 

The next time i hire a lawyer i think i will test them. That way i will feel better when the bill comes and i see charges for billable hours and the costs per hour.