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Avengers 3/4(!)


125 replies to this topic

#101
pavonis

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Production-wise, they'll somehow resurrect the characters that are early in contract and popular. Though GotG 3 could be set between GotG 2 and IW. Spidey and Panther have replacements in the wings. They probably won't be brought in that soon, but...I don't know.

Story-wise, it's hard to see how future movies could just ignore a post-apocalyptic Earth setting. If undoing the snap happens to bring back some superhero victims, that's great. The MCU, for all its high tech and magic, is still basically our history and culture. It's not like they're suddenly going to ignore half the world (and universe) population is gone. Hard to reference pop culture when things are that radically different. Isn't it?

#102
Tank

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Yes, which is why it will come back to normal. Probably sooner than the end of the movie becauae they can’t do it with half their cast gone. I’m curious why you are so hot on spidey and panther being replaed whenthey’ve each had one movie and in the last year. That’s not how they do it. Bucky will likely replace Cap but look at the journey to get there. Black Panther and Spider-Man hve long term plans.

#103
Justus

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Ya'lls over-thinking it.

The actual deaths will stick, save for Gamora. The dust- deaths will be reversed simply because it's going to be the goal of the heroes to do so.

Anyone who has had their first movie only come out is most definitely safe. Strange, Black Panther, Spider-Man, and the Guardians especially. T'challa especially. It doesn't matter which was filmed first they've had long term plans for him for ages, even before his movie was a hit.

You can't kill half the universe and let it stand, obviously it will be undone... and when you have the soul and time stones on top of that? Anyone could get a pass.

Sacrifices will have to come, sure, but look to who has filled out their contracts-- Cap, Thor, Iron Man.

But that's the problem: the so-called sacrifices to come are only due to the end of actor contracts the public were aware of for some time, so there's no suspense or drama, no matter the way the characters are killed off. 

 

As you mention, those characters who "died" In this film--and had existing solo films--will be back. Its a business, so there's no doubt about that. Let's not forget the next film's  unsurprising return of Bucky, thanks to Sebastian Stan only 4 films in his 9 film contract. Again, no surprises, because in this media obsessed age, the world always knows what's going on behind the scenes. 

 

Some will argue that its the way characters die, not the fact you know that matters, but for Infinity War, death was so relentlessly teased....like someone screaming about it on a street corner...that the audience invested their time in guessing about deaths, and knowing the nature of the business (meaning Spider-Man, Black Panther and Bucky are not going anywhere), the desired, 70's comic effect of "this time_____dies!!" did not pay off.



#104
pavonis

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Yes, which is why it will come back to normal. Probably sooner than the end of the movie becauae they cant do it with half their cast gone. Im curious why you are so hot on spidey and panther being replaed whentheyve each had one movie and in the last year. Thats not how they do it. Bucky will likely replace Cap but look at the journey to get there. Black Panther and Spider-Man hve long term plans.


I was just looking at the story situation from a different angle for fun. I'm sure Holland and Boseman will be great for years to come. It's just interesting that replacements are in the wings for both already.

#105
Tank

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Which replacements? Ima confused.

#106
pavonis

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Shuri has been the Black Panther in the comics. Donald Glover in SM: Homecoming played the uncle of Miles Morales, another kid who became Spider-Man. So successors to the roles are already set up if needed.

#107
Poe Dameron

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Ya'lls over-thinking it.

 

The actual deaths will stick, save for Gamora.

 

I'm dubious about going even that far.  I mean it wasn't just Loki and Heimdall, but pretty much the whole Asgardian race was wiped out at the beginning of the movie (rendering Ragnarok kinda pointless).  Is that really going to stand?

 

Shuri has been the Black Panther in the comics. Donald Glover in SM: Homecoming played the uncle of Miles Morales, another kid who became Spider-Man. So successors to the roles are already set up if needed.

 

The way Shuri is portrayed, she seems very unlikely to ever take up the mantle of Black Panther.  She's a gentle soul and a science nerd.  Sure she fought for a bit in Black Panther, but it was clear she was no warrior.  It'd be like making Pepper Potts Iron Man full time.  The character just doesn't make sense for the role as currently constituted.  They'd have to spend a couple movies setting that up.

 

Nakia or maybe Okoye are a lot closer to stepping into the role.

 

As for Mile Morales, a blink and you miss it Easter egg is hardly a set up.



#108
pavonis

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Easter eggs are by definition "blink and you'll miss it", so what? I didn't know a set up had a required minimum duration. The infinity gauntlet was an Easter egg in Thor; did that not count towards the set up of future stories?

#109
Tank

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If youre talking about the characters in the comics passing down their mantle ALL of the A-list Avengers have done so. Literally every Avenger weve seen on film outside of Wanda (that I can think of) has had a legacy character take over. But the only ones that have followed those set ups in the films are Cap and Iron Man.

Sam or Bucky could take over for Cap, and Rhodey could take over as Iron Man. Other than that, they havent set it up and wouldnt do it without setting things up for several films. Theyve literally had 4 films to set up Bucky to logically take over for Cap. Rhodey was Iron Man before he was War Machine in the comics, but they just skipped over that but he could do it.

Boseman and Holland are breakout stars with one solo movie each. They will each get at least 2 more as well as cross-over appearances before theyll even think about replacing them. Its been a decade and only now are they teasing somebody may die.

#110
Poe Dameron

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The infinity gauntlet was an Easter egg in Thor; did that not count towards the set up of future stories?

 

Not really.

 

1.  That movie was 7 years ago and, if I recall correctly, before they'd even decided to add Thanos to the end credits of The Avengers.

2.  It was never actually used as a set up and was promptly forgotten/ignored by future writers.

3.  It created a continuity error that they finally fixed with a joke by making it a fake in Ragnarok.



#111
pavonis

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Fine. I was too far out of the box.

I'm skeptical of the whole thing. Killing off all the characters with sequels and not the ones with fulfilled contracts, just to be surprising...it's either brilliant or stupid.

I'm irked that there's a big red reset button just waiting to be pushed, and I'm not fully confident that the writers will be able to make the reset feel worth it or earned in Avengers 4. If none of it happened, then where's the character growth? Are the characters that died going to remember it after being resurrected? We will see.

#112
Jacen123

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We're also overthinking it for a vast majority of film goers.  They don't think about announced films and contracts or anything like that.  They see previews for movies and then they go.

 

Also, Marvel already pulled a fast one on us before after initially announcing Captain America 3 as being subtitled "Serpent Society" instead of "Civil War".  I don't know how much it would affect the corporate/investment side of things, but there's nothing, in principle, from stopping them announcing a movie as a fake out or, at least, really having another film appear in another's original place.  I don't think they are doing too much manipulating of us with their announcements, but it's always possible that they could be misleading us on certain aspects of future films.



#113
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I'm irked that there's a big red reset button just waiting to be pushed, and I'm not fully confident that the writers will be able to make the reset feel worth it or earned in Avengers 4. If none of it happened, then where's the character growth? Are the characters that died going to remember it after being resurrected? We will see.

 

Character growth? There's not much of that in MCU films as it is. Regarding the resurrected characters, even if they remember what happened to them, I would not expect anything other than a loose, sci-fi-based answer, and not some deep, spiritual/philosophical statement. The MCU rarely goes in that direction.



#114
Justus

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We're also overthinking it for a vast majority of film goers.  They don't think about announced films and contracts or anything like that.  They see previews for movies and then they go.

 

 

 

Really? Social media has been flooded with speculation about the contracts of the "big three" (before and after anything coming from Disney). and which characters will have sequel movies in the future. They cannot stop talking about, so I would guess even casual film goers come across that information, even on sites not known for being a well of entertainment news (e.g., Forbes).



#115
Poe Dameron

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For the last few months, I've been enjoying these on Youtube.

 



#116
Jacen123

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We're also overthinking it for a vast majority of film goers.  They don't think about announced films and contracts or anything like that.  They see previews for movies and then they go.

 

 

Really? Social media has been flooded with speculation about the contracts of the "big three" (before and after anything coming from Disney). and which characters will have sequel movies in the future. They cannot stop talking about, so I would guess even casual film goers come across that information, even on sites not known for being a well of entertainment news (e.g., Forbes).

 

That may still be a much smaller segment of the general population than you think it is.   To simplify things a bit due to the same social media services not being accessible all over the world, let's consider Twitter users in the United States.  A quick Google search tells me that there are roughly 68 million American Twitter users (I am not sure if that is the total number of accounts or unique individuals with accounts, so I will make the assumption that this is the number of unique users) and there are roughly 328 million people in the US.  Simple division shows then that roughly 21% of the country has a Twitter account, assuming those numbers are accurate and I am quite skeptical of the Twitter figure.  While impressive, that is still a small percentage of the population.  There are certainly other social media services out there, but many people have accounts on multiple ones, so simply adding the number of users across the board would not be appropriate.  One could be able to estimate the total number of social media with research into percentages of intersections (in the mathematical sense) of people having combinations of the different social media services.  However, that is far beyond the scope of what I am willing to do.

 

So, as it is, we still have a minority of Americans having accounts on Twitter.  Another quick Google search suggested that as many as 44% of Twitter accounts have never posted a tweet.  Supposing that that number is a bit high and that it holds for the US (which I will readily admit is a large assumption), let's use the figure that 40% of users don't tweet, so we don't see their thoughts on the matter at all.  Now, some more arithmetic yields that we only 13% of Americans have made at least one tweet.  Granted, that doesn't tell us much of anything about how many users may be actively reading what others say on Twitter, but it gives us some frame of reference for how few people are actually active on Twitter.

 

Even still, let's dig in a little deeper.  Let's just consider those Twitter users themselves.  The way social media is set up, users see content based upon their contacts, friends, and who else they choose to follow.  Despite the network being huge, people tend to have fairly homogeneous feeds because those are generated from people, sites, and groups, that tend to have interests similar to the person following them.  That tends to put users into a feedback loop with confirmation bias where they typically see a lot of similar material repeatedly.  Combined with a natural instinct for many to take their experience as being a common one, this can easily lead to a user thinking that what they are seeing on social media is common among many/most users when that may easily not be the case.  Combining this with the media-driven narrative that social media is all-pervasive, it is very easy to then reach the conclusion that everybody is talking about the topics that you are and reading about.  It's an amplified version of how people are so likely to believe anecdotal evidence even if there is substantial data that disagree with those individual testimonials.

 

I know that you didn't restrict yourself to just social media, though, but brought up websites, in general.  Even in those cases, people generally will only seek out websites and articles about topics they really care about.  Even though tons of people clearly are going to see this movie, to most people, it is still just a fun diversion to go to.  They typically don't have huge discussions about the movie, thinking about the details of why the writers and producers did things in a specific way.  Sure, they may click on a headline they see, but are not likely going to go check it out on their own.  This is tied into the classic type of bad sampling scheme discussed in introductory statistics classes known as voluntary response sampling.

 

I could be quite wrong about this particular case; I certainly don't know what most people are doing in regards to looking up anything about this movie, but what I've written above is all part of the difficulties that researchers are told about when analyzing data from the internet and social media.  It is extremely difficult to analyze well and very simple to draw horribly incorrect conclusions based upon one's own experience.


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#117
Tank

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Uh oh, Justus was challenged with numbers and evidence. This should end.... sometime next month with massive amounts of frustration for all involved.
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#118
El Chalupacabra

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Obviously, any of the post-snap dust deaths of any heroes will be reversed.  Simply put, I am not convinced we will see any perma-deaths of Cap, Iron Man,  or Thor in IW part 2 or other films for that matter.  Those upcoming deaths of the big 3  that have been rumored are all just that: rumors and assumptions.  Besides, why are their deaths even necessary going into the phase 3/4 MCU films, anyway?    Captain Marvel, and all the other upcoming films can still be made.  It's not like you HAVE to kill RDJ Iron Man permanently before you have a Captain Marvel or any other Avenger film after IW2.  MCU/Disney would be foolish to kill off Iron Man, Cap, or Thor permanently, given all the money those characters have made MCU/Disney for the last decade.  It can easily be written in later films that the current Avenger line up (thor, Iron Man, Cap) is off doing their thing off screen (be it temporary deaths with later comic book like resurrections, temporarily leaving the Avenger teams, or injuries that sideline them for a few films) thereby leaving room for cameos in other films, and the newer Avengers films focus on another Avenger team as the primary focus going forward, similar to how the comics had East Coast and West Coast Avengers.  They may not call any additional Avenger teams that in the MCU films, but basically the same thing.  



#119
Jacen123

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Uh oh, Justus was challenged with numbers and evidence. This should end.... sometime next month with massive amounts of frustration for all involved.

Nah, not for me, anyhow.  I said what I wanted to say, which, though in a response to Justus, was not really aimed at him, but rather others, who may also very understandably think that social media and website traffic are as pervasively representative as they think.


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#120
Lucas1138

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I stopped thinking that sometime around 10PM on November 8th 2016.



#121
Justus

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Uh oh, Justus was challenged with numbers and evidence. This should end.... sometime next month with massive amounts of frustration for all involved.

Nah, not for me, anyhow.  I said what I wanted to say, which, though in a response to Justus, was not really aimed at him, but rather others, who may also very understandably think that social media and website traffic are as pervasively representative as they think.

 

Brand saturation is another way of saying it (movie franchise advertising in the form of reports, clips, etc.) is pervasive. That's the job. If you opened any random page (MSN or Yahoo, for example) since the release of the first Infinity War teaser (arbitrary starting point), entertainment stories are always front and center. Movie coverage the same, so in the case of Avengers 3, it was not uncommon to see stories on Downey jr's salary, "who dies?" stories, Super Bowl spots, actor contracts expiring, future films, each new trailer release, etc. on the front page, so it did not matter if the viewer was not looking for it--it was there.

 

Disney wants as many butts in the seats as possible, so the Marvel movie brand has to be--everywhere. Unless one is like (for example) some political ideologues and aggressively shut down any page, tweet or clip of something he or she does not like, exposure is a guarantee. So, for those who caught the movie,  I doubt most were not too shocked by the "deaths" of characters known to have sequels down the road. Its difficult to avoid media reports, and again, that's the job.

 

Oh, and Tank? I'm a fan of facts, which is why I've had a good time torturing certain members with it (some still here, others long gone) in the Lyceum, here...there....

 

...but for your little comment, I'm putting my own infinity gauntlet on, and snapping fingers. Before you realize what's happening, you will be in a prison shower, hands cuffed to a shower head and facing the wall as Donald Trump strolls in buck naked, feeling awfully randy...



#122
Tank

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Well that was... upsetting...
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#123
Justus

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Hey, that's called love in some correctional facilities 


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#124
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Finally saw it now that’s on DVD. Wow. Can’t say that I wasn’t entertained, but what a mess.

I thought they did a good job with Thanos, and it truly was his movie, but there were just too many heroes involved. The whole thing felt like a 2 and a half hour trailer for the next one.

If nothing else it reminded me why I quit comics. At some point the whole thing just turned into a giant cluster****.

#125
The Choc

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Finally saw it.

 

I like how they gave Thanos a motivation that at least in his own mind makes him think he is noble. One thing i feel is missing, and maybe we get it in the next movie, is that he is wrong. The movie makes it seem like Thanos is right. That his plan actually is needed and he actually is the only one who has the balls to do it. The movie needed a scene or a speech where its shown that he is wrong. Maybe Cap or someone saying "you think you are right but what you fail to see is that there are other ways to save the universe and save planets other than what you plan to do. You want to kill half the beings in the universe to save resources, what you fail to see is that these beings are the universes most valuable resource. Their intelligence, creativity and giving are the most important thing we have."

 

The movie really needs that because like I said earlier, it really seems presented like Thanos is right in this movie. Maybe they can deal with this sort of thing in the next movie. I actually think it could be interesting if the next movie takes place some time later and there are leaders on earth who say "that day was an awful day and we all mourned those we lost but now that time has passed we have to understand that as a species we are in a better place, we have enough food and water for everyone...." Then eventually everyone learns how wrong this is as it becomes clear that some of these people who are gone were on the verge of doing great/important things. 





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