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How do you make a villain as iconic as Vader?


Odine
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Title says it all really.

 

After reading many of the discussions around here on content of this new trilogy I am quite optimistic for the new films. Everything seems to be hinting at JJ Abrahms nailing it. But one thing kinda troubles me, how the fuck do you trump Darth Vader as a villain? Seriously? His iconic-ness would have been a total fluke (when the OT came out). I don't see how you can premeditate the creating an iconic character, the more you do try make a character iconic, the more you screw it up.

 

The villains of the PT don't even compare to Vader. I mean, Darth Maul maybe comes close to the icon status but even then he falls short.

 

I think that's gonna be the most difficult thing to achieve with these new films. Creating a character everyone hates, but also love, and who everyone loves to hate. The kind of character that makes EVERY SINGLE KID (and grown up kid) want the action figure for Christmas above absolutely anything.

 

Thoughts?

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You don't hype them for months and then have them do nothing more than dance around and be cut in half.

 

I still can't believe people think positively about Maul. His popularity comes more from Taco Bell than the movie.

 

Having said that, you're also right: they shouldn't try to make something iconic. Just aim to make a good, believable villain. Ideally one that stretches the entire trilogy.

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Yeah personally I don't like Maul at all, but as far as the PT goes he was the only villain that came close to being iconic, and that was only because of his "look".

 

And yeah, I agree the villain needs to live throughout the trilogy to build any kind of gravitas for him/herself.

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Also, the villain needs to be open and not just a few passing shots, ala Sidious. The Emperor was a fairly iconic villain based primarily on RotJ, but Palpatine was somewhat underused as a villain in some odd attempt to half-disguise him until the reveal in RotS.

 

Similarly Maul could have been much better just by making a few changes, like making him the main villain in TPM, and having him appear to be the brains behind the Trade Federation instead of Sidious.

 

So, yeah, the villain has to be consistent, show up, and be more than just the muscle. And, of course, be scary. Vader showed up in the first few minutes and killed a guy with his bare hands, setting himself up as a total bad ass.

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I agree THT, you can't try and intend to create an icon....but surely they are gonna want to write and design a villain worthy of following in the footsteps of Vader, who can kind of live up to that mantle and love up to people's hopes and expectations? I was wondering how is anyone gonna accomplish that??

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I daydream that I'm a writer so;

 

If I were to create a villain to succeed Vader then I'd just create a hero who happens to be wearing the opposing team's colors, most likely someone without Force sensitivity. S/he has equals and underlings of varying caricatures, we're selling toys after all. However I'd want this "villain" to be someone the "hero" could be friends with, if only they'd been born in the same geographic location.

 

The PT is about Pride

The OT is about Redemption

The ST could be about Truth

 

The Empire was a coup, but it was active across generations. How do people within it look at it and then at the Alliance? If Vader's identity becomes known how does that affect the view point on his children? etc etc There is a lot to subtly explore, basing the narrative on a idea which Luke Skywalker struggled with in the Original Trilogy.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

I don't know if Star Wars 7-9 can have a villain as iconic as Darth Vader.

 

Make the villain too much like Vader, fans will decry the villain as a cheap copy. Make the villain too little like Vader, and they just aren't accepted. That is a hard thing to balance.

 

I am wondering if there should even be an iconic big bad. Maybe the big bad should be a faceless personification of the Dark Side itself, like a Shade with a distinctive and evil voice, with several iconic small bads carrying out its will.

 


The villains of the PT don't even compare to Vader. I mean, Darth Maul maybe comes close to the icon status but even then he falls short.

 

I think Darth Maul was iconic, but not even close to Vader. he looked like the Devil and had awesome choreographed fight scenes, but he was basically a pit bull. He didn't scheme, and maybe had a handful of lines.

 

General Greivous was very lame, and I couldn't stand him.

 

Personally, I think Darth Sidious in ROTS was pretty close to Vader status in the PT, but I agree with Fozzie that the half hearted clumsy attempt of trying to kind of make the audience wonder if Palpatine was Sidious just wasn't pulled of very well at all, and as a result, Ian Mcdiarmid was far under-utilized in the PT.

 

The one villain that had potential more because of who played him but was under utilized was Count Dooku. Christopher Lee is a master actor and can personify evil. I am a big fan of his Hammer films, but in the PT, he was basically a place holder and was so under-used, it's not even funny!

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Yeah, I definitely wanted more of Dooku.

 

Keeping with the Hammer actors, look how great Peter Cushing's portrayal of Tarkin was in just one film. A little bit more material like that and Dooku qould've been quite formidable.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

Yeah, it doesn't have to be a Sith Lord, or even a Force user. An admiral or otherwise military commander could make for a great villain.

 

I swear this has been done somewhere before . . . (Scratches head.)

Well one of the villains have to be a force user of some type, to be a challenge to Luke and/or other jedi.

 

However, it would be interesting if a force user was being manipulated by a non-force user. And yeah that was also touched on in the Thrawn trilogy, but maybe it could be done in a different way. Really, EVERYTHING has been done before in some form in Star Wars, be it the EU books, or video games. I think it will come down to execution of the writers as well as the actors themselves to make sure it is iconic, differentiate it as unique, and to make you "forget" something was done before in some other media.

 

I'm kinda hoping Max Von Sydow turns out to be an iconic villain.

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I'm thinking Romulan Commander, btw, from Balance of Terror. That's the character type you could push with a Truth subtext. I think it'd be an interesting way to establish just what was/is going on since the Empire fell too. What's flag waving, what's reality, what does the Will of the Force say etc. could be an interesting, non-dark side tempting, play for Luke to realize he's standing on the wrong side of the line.

 

It's Anti-Palpatine. It's Anti-Vader. Commander-Person has the right plan and is acting about it right, even dealing with the less reputable compatriots that are tainting the ideal s/he professes. Luke they "betrays" his Alliance, in keeping with his OT actions, abandoning the group for what he knows the Force is telling him to do. The Alliance has now existed long enough to become as corrupted as what it fought against. It's time for a forest fire.

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