Pong Messiah Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I know this is a cliche, but if it is done well -- and by well, I mean the whole ball of yarn: well-written, acted, directed, etc. -- I don't care if it's black hats vs. white hats escapism or "torture porn."I get that some people get tired if the good guys don't blow up the occasional Death Star. I know people who had trouble with Breaking Bad, because Walter was definitely not a hero, had a horrific disease we can relate to in real life, and you always knew he was gonna die at the end of the show. I know people who won't even consider watching Hannibal (which, along with GoT is currently the best show on television), because the moral ambiguity of Dexter exhausted them... and with Hannibal Lecter, it's not even ambiguous. I totally get that tastes and tolerances differ. I guess for me, I just have a have a hard time wrapping my head around GoT fans (and there are LOTS of them) who:had no problem with Jaime setting foot on the path to redemption after wantonly tossing a child out a steep window, but OMG after the Cersei rape thing he is evil forevar and it might be time to never watch the show again!could watch a psychotic child gleefully torment a woman with a crossbow, but think eating that (fake) penis sausage in front of Reek just takes things TOO FAR.thought seeing Talisa stabbed in the belly numerous times (which didn't happen in the book) was "edgy," while Sansa getting raped by Ramsay (which didn't happen in the book) is "The last straw!"I mean, yeah, we all have different hot buttons, and some of the people bailing after Sansa Rape come as no surprise, but in general there just doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest El Chalupacabra Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I know this is a cliche, but if it is done well -- and by well, I mean the whole ball of yarn: well-written, acted, directed, etc. -- I don't care if it's black hats vs. white hats escapism or "torture porn." I get that some people get tired if the good guys don't blow up the occasional Death Star. I know people who had trouble with Breaking Bad, because Walter was definitely not a hero, had a horrific disease we can relate to in real life, and you always knew he was gonna die at the end of the show. I know people who won't even consider watching Hannibal (which, along with GoT is currently the best show on television), because the moral ambiguity of Dexter exhausted them... and with Hannibal Lecter, it's not even ambiguous. I totally get that tastes and tolerances differ. I guess for me, I just have a have a hard time wrapping my head around GoT fans (and there are LOTS of them) who:had no problem with Jaime setting foot on the path to redemption after wantonly tossing a child out a steep window, but OMG after the Cersei rape thing he is evil forevar and it might be time to never watch the show again!could watch a psychotic child gleefully torment a woman with a crossbow, but think eating that (fake) penis sausage in front of Reek just takes things TOO FAR.thought seeing Talisa stabbed in the belly numerous times (which didn't happen in the book) was "edgy," while Sansa getting raped by Ramsay (which didn't happen in the book) is "The last straw!"I mean, yeah, we all have different hot buttons, and some of the people bailing after Sansa Rape come as no surprise, but in general there just doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to it. I am not arguing that I personally need to see black hats VS white hats all the time, where the good guys always win. I am saying that could be the reason for a lot of people bailing on GOT, who are used to that type of story writing. But for me personally, there has to be a point to the overall direction of the series, which is what is frustrating to me about Walking Dead, and for me, GOT is starting to spin its wheels in the same way (although only a fraction of the way Walking Dead has become). There is no sense of convergence of plot, no direction the protags are going in for TWD, and IMHO, TWD has gotten to the point where its basically “who will be eaten this week, and how low will Rick go?” That is why I have bailed on TWD, because there IS NO POINT to the show, except that, and intellectually, I need more. I think for some people, they view GOT the same way. Take Sansa. We recently had a debate over in the Star Wars forum about how Princess Leia and Padme are not strong female characters, and it particularly bothers some female posters here. Good points on that were made on both sides of that argument, but I think I understand the point to that argument is that Star Wars hasn’t until recently been all that good at creating female heroes or characters. By using those arguments, its clear Sansa has basically been a professional victim from day one of GOT, and I think maybe some GOT series-only fans have reached a point where they are just tired of things going from bad to worse with Sansa. Now, those who call those fans either overly sensitive or even hypocritical may indeed be vindicated, if Sansa ever gets to the point where she avenges herself, like she ends up on the Iron Throne and exacts some Don Corleone Godfather 1-style justice on all her enemies by the end of the series. But the way things seem to be going in GOT, it’s more likely Sansa will continue to be a punching bag, until the end of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Sansa will definitely get some kind of revenge. I'm with you on The Walking Dead, btw. I bailed on that show for all the reasons you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Chalupa: I stopped watching TWD this season when I moved and missed a few weeks... I like the show, just never got around to catching up, and a few weeks later, noticed I didn't really care enough to invest the time. Was a little sad. I think the lack of caring comes from some of what you described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest El Chalupacabra Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Sansa will definitely get some kind of revenge. I'm with you on The Walking Dead, btw. I bailed on that show for all the reasons you did.I'd like to see Sansa get revenge, AND do so without having to become Cersei Lannister-light to do it. And maybe some collaboration with/redemption for Reek along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerina Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I think the point that some people are missing with the whole "Sansa rape is bad for women" thing is that Sansa is a fully fleshed out character who keeps being shit on (because that's what happens in this world). She's not there purely to get shit on with no attention paid to her characterization. I would actually argue that not having her be raped by a known sadist whom she just married in a world where rape is all too common JUST because she's a girl and omg that's mean would be worse. It was a completely natural progression of events in a violent, fucked up world. Changing directions because OMG FEMALE is a step backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I don't see why anyone would care about the viewing numbers, who cares if less people are watching. The only reason to care would be if the show was somehow on the verge of cancellation. Which is not even remotely an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I don't see why anyone would care about the viewing numbers, who cares if less people are watching. The only reason to care would be if the show was somehow on the verge of cancellation. Which is not even remotely an issue.Probs not an issue. But any time you get a show this expensive, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas1138 Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Hey pong thanks for being the only person capable of comprehending the point I was making. Respect. Viewership equals money. If the money disappears, the show will suffer. It's a huge production, as has been outlined in the thread already. If you start taking away the resources the end product will eventually suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 To be honest, you've made several good points, and I'm not sure which ones I actually got! Thank you, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowDog Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I think the point that some people are missing with the whole "Sansa rape is bad for women" thing is that Sansa is a fully fleshed out character who keeps being **** on (because that's what happens in this world). She's not there purely to get **** on with no attention paid to her characterization. I would actually argue that not having her be raped by a known sadist whom she just married in a world where rape is all too common JUST because she's a girl and omg that's mean would be worse. It was a completely natural progression of events in a violent, ****ed up world. Changing directions because OMG FEMALE is a step backwards.You can accomplish the same thing by having it happen offscreen. You don't need to fetishize it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas1138 Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 And what the hell does "fetishize" even mean? How did the scene (by which I mean the less than 20 seconds before the end of the episode) do that? (Dex this is an incredulous "what the hell," I just genuinely don't get it. I don't get it. I'm like Josh Baskin in the scene in BIG. I don't get it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 You can accomplish the same thing by having it happen offscreen.I agree fully... that said, I thought the scene was well done (uh, is it even OK on any level to say a rape scene was "well done?"), and there is such a history of focusing on the pain and torture of various characters in this adaptation, I can't help but wonder if the writers woulda been accused of giving Sansa "special treatment" by having it occur offscreen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowDog Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 And what the hell does "fetishize" even mean? How did the scene (by which I mean the less than 20 seconds before the end of the episode) do that? (Dex this is an incredulous "what the hell," I just genuinely don't get it. I don't get it. I'm like Josh Baskin in the scene in BIG. I don't get it)What was accomplished by seeing it that wouldn't have been accomplished by having it happen off screen? If the answer is "nothing" then that's what I mean by fetishize. Its sole purpose is to shock and thrill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 We didn't SEE it. We heard it. And we saw Reek's horror upon watching it. He was the mirror to the audience. As far as rape scenes go it was pretty tame. It was just that Sansa has had a bunch of nasty shit happen to her already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowDog Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 You guys are worse than Pats fans. Let's just move on. So what's up with Dany lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas1138 Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Dany sucks. Everything about Meereen sucks. Not as bad as Dorne has sucked this season, but pretty bad. Actually those are my book googles. Meereen this season in the TV show has been pretty okay. Moderately entertaining, even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Hey pong thanks for being the only person capable of comprehending the point I was making. Respect. Viewership equals money. If the money disappears, the show will suffer. It's a huge production, as has been outlined in the thread already. If you start taking away the resources the end product will eventually suffer.If it were earlier in the shows run then maybe. Last year the show was the most watched show in the history of HBO, surpassing the Sorpanos. Considering it was the most watched we can maybe assume that it was at a point where it was at a critical mass. It couldn't garner more viewers than it had last year. It reached the peak audience during what was (thus far) the best part of the story on TV or in the book. It would be expected to drop. Its still HBO's biggest and most prestigous show. If the show was open ended then I'd agree. But its not, in all likliehood it was this season and 2 more. I highly doubt the viewership will drop to a point where HBO will cut the budget. Like any business HBO is about money, but they are also about prestige. They won't allow their most popular show ever to go out looking shoddy. Also, the rape did take place offscreen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas1138 Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 All that is very true. But I still think it's concerning if there was no plateau and we just see a precipitous drop back to Season 3 numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerina Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 And what the hell does "fetishize" even mean? How did the scene (by which I mean the less than 20 seconds before the end of the episode) do that? (Dex this is an incredulous "what the hell," I just genuinely don't get it. I don't get it. I'm like Josh Baskin in the scene in BIG. I don't get it)What was accomplished by seeing it that wouldn't have been accomplished by having it happen off screen? If the answer is "nothing" then that's what I mean by fetishize. Its sole purpose is to shock and thrill. This entire show is played for shock value. They could rename the damn thing Shock and Awe and it'd be the same shit. We watched Oberyn's head get crushed into a dozen pieces, but you think hearing a young woman cry out off screen from rape is more shocking? I mean, look. I agree that rape is bad. It's terrible. Horrific. Traumatic. Possibly one of the worst things you can have happen to you in real life. But this isn't real life. This is Westeros. The very first episode we saw a dude ****ing his twin sister right before he shoves a young child out a window to his (intentional) death. Are we really more deadened to twincest and the attempted murder of a small child than we are to rape? And HOLY GOD do the Sand Snakes suck. You want to talk about something shocking, how about that sad excuse of a fight scene? Since when does GoT phone in a fight scene?? Really, if anybody's power was stripped away on Sunday it was the Sand Snakes'. Maybe the wedding night was just the straw that broke the camel's back because it was already loaded down with the giant ball of suckage that is Dorne. What episode was it last season that caused that dip in the ratings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Probably the one that aired Memorial Day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas1138 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 There was no Memorial Day episode last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerina Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Apparently the dip was the one with Tyrion's trial. Which can't possibly be reflective of how many times that show was watched. I rewatched that shit like 12 times JUST to see Tyrion's speech at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Krawlie Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 So what exactly is Doran Martell's plan going to be on the show? There's no Quentyn, no Arianne, no Griff... his whole plan in the books had several different options and contingencies, but in the show it doesn't look like he has anything at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas1138 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 I don't know, but if we don't get snake in the grass and "Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood!" I'll be super angry. Trystane = Faegon! Nah. So I'm betting Doran agrees to send Myrcella back, Obara takes Oberyn's seat on the small council. Maybe sends someone to the Citadel (Old town has gotten several mentions lately, thinking Sam may end up there after all). Doran locks Ellaria up and eventually gives her the aforementioned speech. Varys pops up in Dorne and makes sure Doran knows what's going on with Dany. Not sure how he'll involve Trystane, maybe a combo of Aegon and Quentyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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