Game of Thrones Season 5

[irishdancer2]

I'm so excited for Arya's storyline. This is going to be great. Some of the others are boring to me--I don't really care about Brienne anymore, and I only care about Sansa and Littlefinger when they're pulling off an intrigue. I'm happy for Jon but constantly afraid something terrible is going to happen to him because of his accursed Stark blood.

Season 5 Episode 2: The House of Black And White

 

- Cersei is having random dwarves brought to her by people trying to collect on the bounty on Tyrion. Kevan isn't putting up with her ****... which is great

I'd already forgotten about this, and it made me so freaking happy! Kevan rocks.

 

Dany... I found it very interesting this episode how they deliberately framed Jorah's absence multiple times without saying a word about it. In the old days, whenever she would send the rest of her council away, she would tell Jorah to stay. In this episode, I could feel her missing those private moments of vulnerability when she was left alone. God, I miss Jorah.

[Lucas1138]

Littlefinger definitely had a point when he was talking about how terrifically Brienne had failed at her sworn shield duties. Obviously there's more to it than that, but that's a compelling reason for Sansa not to trust her. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

 

I am nearly positive at this point that Petyr is trying to marry Sansa to Ramsay. That means Sansa (presumed heir to the North) and Ramsay Bolton (recently legitimized, heir to the Warden of the North) would create a great power couple. It would further insulate Petyr/Vale from any potential danger from the South. The Boltons will always have trouble controlling the North because everyone knows what went down at the Red Wedding and they are fiercely loyal to the Starks. If anything were to happen to Ramsay that would open the door for Sansa to reveal her true identity and seize the North (with or without Littlefinger). Same thing in the Vale, if anything were to happen to Robin, Petyr would be in total control of The Vale and able to marry and produce an heir of his own. Plus, we've seen clips of Petyr telling Sansa to "avenge them!" Putting her in Winterfell with the Boltons puts her in a prime prime place to do that.

 

That's a good point about Dany missing Jorah's council. I wish we would have gotten an extended dialogue between her and Barristan. He's the only one in her company that knows how 'mad' the Mad King truly was. Dany is treading that line very carefully. A lot of book readers have long suspected that despite her good intentions she has the same touch of madness that Aerys had.

[Lucas1138]

Choc (and anyone else that's a book reader really. Ryn? Krawlie, even though we've talked about it before), I want to hear your thoughts on the show as it diverges from, and possibly spoils parts of, the books. Do you care? Do you recognize that they're different entities and don't really care about changes one way or another?

 

I'm more in the second camp. I realize it might have something to do with the fact that I watched seasons 1-3 before I read the books, but I don't really care that the show is going different directions plot-wise (Sansa/Ramsay, Jaime in Dorne, No Griff/LSH/Quentyn/Greyjoys/Arianne, Brienne doing things in the North, etc). I'll be bummed if/when the show starts to spoil big things about the end game (not something I'm worried about this season) but I'll still watch. It won't take away from my enjoyment when I finally get to read them. I usually enjoy reading Tower of the Hand and /ASOIAF but lately people just can't stop bitching about things being changed. Things need to be streamlined. In a perfect world we'd have a near 1:1 adaptation, but that's just not realistic. I don't mind that they need to combine characters (Speculating here: Sansa/LSH? Quentyn/Griff/Trystane? Elia/Arianne/Sand Snakes) in order to streamline things. It's hard enough for the show as it is to keep all the plot lines somewhat together without the audience losing track of people - as Pong/Shadwodog mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

More and more I'm seeing fans of the books lament that the show is becoming "fan fiction" and become up in arms about every little change (Balon is still alive! Sam didn't do the backdoor politicking to get Jon elected! Why is Jaime in Dorne?!). I just don't care, really. The books are the books, and the show is the show to me.

[The Choc]

I don't mind changes at all, but I won't allow some tv show to spoil the books in a major way. I'll stop watching if need be.

[Lucas1138]

So what if (this is a major spoiler for those of you who haven't finished the books- don't click it)...

 

 

 

Jon dies in episode 9 this season and we see in episode 10 that he's warged into Ghost or gets revived by Melisandre? I mean we assume he's not really dead, but would that be the first clue that okay, I'm done with this until we sort this out? Or would it take something more like hypothetically we start to see what happens with Bran and Bloodraven, Dany begins her journey to Westeros (lololol, like this will ever happen), or something with the Others... something we've seen absolutely none of but is expected to come in TWOW?

 

 

 

I think the major reason for the difference in opinion is because I started with the show whereas you had the books. I wouldn't be thrilled about major book spoilers, but I don't think I'd stop watching.

[The Choc]

I started with the show too, watched season 1 before reading the books. But I read all the books prior to season 2. Yeah, if that happened I'd likely stop watching.

[ShadowDog]

It's hard enough for the show as it is to keep all the plot lines somewhat together without the audience losing track of people - as Pong/Shadwodog mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to have two shows running concurrently, each show focusing on half the characters. Kind of like Agents of Shield and Daredevil both taking place in the same universe but able to be enjoyed separately. That way there wouldn't be so many goddamned characters and their storylines crammed into 50 minutes a week.

[Lucas1138]

Eh, that seems like an unnecessary complication. If you're going to do that, make it an hour and a half, or 15 episode seasons or something.

 

I can see how people would have a hard time keeping plot lines straight when they first get into it, but I have to admit I can't understand that coming from someone who actually watches the show on a week to week basis.

[Darth Krawlie]

My wife forgets some of the more minor characters sometimes, but once I start explaining she remembers pretty quick. Makes sense when you can go several episodes without seeing Yara/Asha or Loras, for example.

[Lucas1138]

With minor characters that's definitely fair. I still think a quick reminder should suffice (but not everyone is watching with an omniscient book-reader who can remind you of every detail and why Loras is important, so the point is well taken).

[UK Legend Killa]

I think streamlining is quite important. How many of us have complained/advised that you need to get through Book 4 to get to Book 5. They are trimming the fat and advancing stories as well/fast as they are allowed. They don't have unlimited time/space to show every single thing so I think that as long as they hit the main beats of the storylines and characters are still affected in the same way then it shouldn't matter too much.

 

For example (I'll spoiler tag this just because I don't know who has/hasn't read the books and what I should/shouldn't say.)

 

 

 

Jamie going to Dorne to get back Myrcella - Continues the distance that Jamie has from Cersei/King's Landing in the books, allows them to carry on Cersei's upcoming plot without people wondering why he isn't helping her, brings back Bronn who is a favourite character of many, connects us to Dorne without adding in another nameless/faceless few characters to show what is happening with Myrcella AND it humanises Jamie in the same way that him running off looking for Brienne does, without having one character spend a year looking for another character who in turn is simply looking for another character.

 

 

It hits all the main points whilst breathing new life into the story. If, however, things do start to get ahead of the books then I will be a bit pissed.

 

The TV show is pretty much the cliff notes version of the books. You get a lighter, speedier version of what the book offers. If it continues to spell out what will happen in the books before it is in print then there will be hell to pay. If Martin gets his book out before next season then I think they may have given themselves an extra year or two of breathing room for some stories, but others (Sansa especially) are going to be hard-pressed not to spoil any further plot points Martin has coming up

[Darth Krawlie]

I think we should get a pool going for who we think gets the iron throne in the end. I should probably post this in the book thread.

[The Choc]

Tommen

[Ryn]

Choc (and anyone else that's a book reader really. Ryn? Krawlie, even though we've talked about it before)

Getting interested from the show, I've read the shit out of the book's wikia.

[Lucas1138]

Well if you can set aside the time to read 5,000 pages, I recommend it! lol

 

One of the big complaints some people have had is Brienne (apparently) going North/to Sansa, and actually encountering Arya and Sansa. That's a massive improvement, at least as far as the show goes. How boring would Brienne's trek through the Riverlands and along the coast be in show form as it's written? The book allows for so much more that wouldn't translate well to screen.

 

Plus, this way, we actually get some Brienne payoff, something "we" have been waiting for since 2005. How great is it she runs into the maid of three and ten with auburn hair? That's a good change.

 

One "bad" change that was substantive I thought was Sam telling Jon that Bran is alive. That was needless and changed a lot of Jon's characterization and motivation for his actions and thoughts. I'm sure I can think of something with more substantive change to it as well.

[Pong Messiah]

Well if you can set aside the time to read 5,000 pages, I recommend it!

Ditto that.

 

The books are a ton of fun. Just my opinion, but even though they diverge from the series in many ways, they really augment what you see on the TV and allow you to enjoy it on a deeper level.

 

read them

[Lucas1138]

Oh the internet is going to have a field day with this one.

 

Looking forward to a rewatch. I will say, I prefer big deviations to little ones. The little ones are distracting, the big ones open up new possibilities.

[Pong Messiah]

golly i just love this show

 

Only thing I would have changed would be to drag out Janos Slynt's execution a bit. Not the actual death but the point between him realizing Jon isn't just trying to scare him straight and "Oh shit, I went too far and the bastard's gonna kill me!"

 

IMO, the realization and growing terror/desperation would have made the scene more powerful and effective. But it's really a minor quibble. As "slow" as this season has been unfolding, there's just so much stuff going on. It's been really rewarding to watch (and it feels kinda strange when my only issue is related to something happening too fast)...

 

Was concerned that it might be less fun for people who haven't read the books, but I'm watching it with a book virgin who seems to be fully captivated, so prolly not an issue.

 

Also not really bothered by many changes so far. I mean, if it's something that fundamentally changes a character I am invested in in a negative way -- OK, that's sucks and they should go to hell. But as long as the change make sense and provide a payoff, I'll probably be OK with it.

[Darth Krawlie]

I'm totally on board with the Sansa/Ramsay change. I really enjoyed this episode.

[Jacen123]

I really liked it, too. I've only read up through Book 4, so I am in the dark on half of what's happening, but I'm enjoying what we've seen so far.

[Pong Messiah]

I'm totally on board with the Sansa/Ramsay change.

Sometimes when adapting for Television or Film, relationships between characters are created that don't exist, and plot points are wrapped in a bow in order to save time and keep the narrative tighter.

 

It can be obnoxious and patronizing when poorly done, but there is something about Sansa/Ramsay combo that just makes sense, and hopefully leads (or perhaps just forces) Sansa into a position where she takes action sooner rather than later. Really eager to follow this storyline.

 

 

The side plot with the fake Stark girl didn't bug me, but with how much is already going on in the show, I'm both curious and grateful they took this route

 

 

[Lucas1138]

Right, danger to real Sansa is much more dramatic and interesting than danger to Fake Arya/Jeyne Poole.

 

My big quibble was the Slynt execution. It hit the right points (most importantly being the nod from Stannis the Mannis), but somehow they thought getting rid of "Fetch me a block" was a good change?!? As Pong detailed above, it would have been nice to see that dragged out a bit. The moment when Jon stops the hanging... and then decides to behead Slynt is an incredible one.

 

Things that stick out off the top of my head

 

Sansa is awesome, totally on board with this North plot.

"The North remembers" thank you old woman!!!

Arya ditching her worldly belongings except for Needle was expertly acted.

Glad the Tyrion and Varys show was over. That was dragging on. Quite improbable that Varys would lose Tyrion though. That's the problem with bringing him along on this plot.

Jonathon Pryce as the High Sparrow is going to be great

 

I think the 2nd episode was an improvement over the first, and last night's was an improvement over the 2nd. Starting to pick up steam.

[Pong Messiah]

Agreed on all counts.

 

There were so many active threads last night, I totally forgot about "The North Remembers" line until you reminded me. Was awesome... wanted to high five that old broad!

[Lucas1138]

Okay. I'm settling in for my re-watch... recap at first with some comments about scenes, organized by place. Quotes to follow. Ending with miscellaneous notes I felt were worth expounding on. I'm doing this as much for me as you, so don't feel bad if this goes un-commented upon lol.

 

Inside the House of the Black and White

- Arya has gained entrance but so far she just seems to be sweeping the floors. She sees Jaqen give some water to a guy, he kneels at an altar and keels over. Arya isn't happy her training hasn't begun yet. Jaqen hearkens back to Syrio telling Arya that there is only one god (and his name is death).

- The waif visits Arya's chambers and asks who she is. She doesn't like her answer so she keeps hitting her. Jaqen doesn't approve of this and brings a stop to it. He says she isn't ready ot be "no one." She must get rid of all of Arya Stark's stuff in order to be no one.

- Arya ditches her belongings. She gets rid of everything... except Needle. She can't bring herself to totally disassociate with Arya. Needle was forged in Winterfell, given to her by Jon Snow. It's literally the last remnant she has of home.

- After starting her journey to being "no one," Arya is invited to the morgue(?) at the HoBW. There, she and the waif begin to wash down the body of a dead dude. For reasons.

 

Kings Landing

- Absolutely beautiful establishing shot of King's Landing. That's been probably the most noticeable thing this season, there have been some incredible shots.

- Cersei is on her way to Tommen and Margaery's wedding. In her litter she hears the small folk cry out for Margaery (in a loving way). Not being adored probably doesn't actually bother her, but them loving Margaery, who she can't stand, definitely upsets her. They're setting the table for great Cersei/Margaery conflict.

- Tommen and Margaery get married - and no one gets brutally murdered, so that's good. Tommen and Margaery consumate the marriage... and Tommen is definitely a 14-16 year old boy. Also, Tommen's actor is 17 and Natalie Dorner is 33. Good goin, kid. Marg mentions that Olenna bailed on King's Landing and she not-so-subtly implies to Tommen that Cersei might enjoy getting back to Casterly Rock. They both want each other very much out of the way. Tommen broaches this subject with Cersei and she is pissed. She sees through this and 'bout to whoop some Tyrell ass.

- There's so much shade being thrown from Margaery to Cersei in this scene, just describing it doesn't do it justice. What's interesting is that Cersei opts for niceties instead of lobbing bombs the other way. She's willing to play the long con here... but to what end?

- Inside the brothel owned by Littlefinger (and under the direction of Olyvar, Loras' lover) the High Septon is, uh, profaning the Faith. The sparrows come in, trash the brothel and force the Septon on a penance walk.

- The High Septon pays the Small Council a visit and wants the Sparrows executed for their treatment of him. High hypocrisy.

- Cersei decides to visit the one they call the High Sparrow (played expertly by Jonathan Pryce). He thinks she's there to arrest him... but she lets him know that she's thrown the (former) High Septon in the dungeons. She wants an "alliance" of sorts between the Crown and the Faith. She says they are two pillars that lean on each other... one crumbling does the other no favors.

- Cersei sends a raven to Littlefinger at the Eyrie (or wherever he's slithering about). She asks Qyburn how his work is coming along, blah blah blah HOLY CRAP that body under the sheet started twitching. I WONDER.....

 

The North

- The Boltons have taken residence up in Winterfell. Reek is walking through the courtyard and sees a flayed family and is quite visibly disturbed by it.

- Roose explains that they can't rule the North by fear alone. There has to be some diplomacy/politics at some point. He points out that Tywin is dead and can't use his influence to protect them.

- Baelish and Sansa arrive at Moat Cailin where Sansa surmises that they're going to Winterfell and that she's to marry a Bolton - she freaks the hell out. Petyr says he won't force her to do anything (riiiight), but he gives her a rousing speech about how this could help lead her to vengeance for the tragedies that have befallen her family. This would have been better if he didn't deliver she speech from 3 centimeters from her face.

- Brienne and Pod swap backstories. This is a great, great scene. It also serves to set us up for a potential conflict between Brienne and Stannis, as she (correctly) holds him responsible for Renly's death.

- Sansa and Littlefinger arrive at Winterfell. At first it seems like Sansa won't be able to resist the urge to slap the hell out of Roose Bolton, but she plays her part well. Ramsay's harem doesn't seem pleased at all that there's another girl to vie for his affection.

- An older woman shows Sansa to her chambers and says "Welcome home Lady Stark.... The North remembers."

- Reek spots Sansa walking through the courtyard and does all he can to hide his face from her. Could he be regaining bits of humanity?

- Ramsay gives Littlefinger his word that he'll never hurt Sansa (hmph). Littlefinger claims that he doesn't know much about Ramsay. Roose interrupts this conversation and gives word of Cersei's raven. He's still quite skeptical about this alliance and what it might mean when the Lannisters find out about Sansa. He asks why Littlefinger would gamble with his position. Every ambitious move is a gamble. Littlefinger says the last time the lords of the Eyrie and North united they brought down the greatest dynasty Westeros has ever known. He's clearly playing a looooong game here.

 

The Wall

- Stannis wants to have a word with Jon Snow about his offer to make him a Stark. Stannis needs the Northern lords to rally to his cause and can't do that without a Stark (the same reason Roose wants Sansa). Stannis means to march on Winterfell. Stannis leaves the Wildling's fate up to Jon. Stannis thinks Jon should send Thorne to command Eastwatch to get him away. Davos tries to sell Jon on the idea that accepting Stannis' offer doesn't really break his NW vow.

- Jon is holding a meeting to give out responsibilities. Sam tells jon that Maester Aemon isn't feeling well and can't join them.

- They need a new latrine ditch, he appoints... Brian. Jon gives Alliser Thorne the title of First Ranger. It's a position of honor, but should do a decent job at keeping him away for some periods of time. He seems somewhat pleased? Or Not? Jon gives Janos Slynt command of Greyguard. He sees this as an insult because it is in ruin and Jon can stick his order up his bastard ass. Jon doesn't have time for this ****. He decides to behead Janos. Slynt thinks he's safe up until the time the sword is unsheathed, then starts begging for his life like a baby. Jon hesitates for a moment but carries out the deed. Stannis watches from a rampart and gives Jon the subtlest nod of approval.

 

Essos/Volantis

- The Tyrion and Varys show continues, Tyrion bitches about getting out of his 'box,' which is exactly what I'm doing with this plot.

- Another beautiful establishing shot of a city though. The Long Bridge of Volantis looked great.

- Tyrion and Varys stumble on a Red Priestess (a la Melisandre) preaching in a square. She recognizes Tyrion, or at least recognizes him as someone she has seen in her fires.

- This being Game of Thrones, we find ourselves in a brothel before too long. It has been a whole 20 minutes probably. There's a Dany lookalike, which of course means Ser Friendzone is nearby.

- Tyrion decides he can't have sex with the whore he has charmed... perhaps relating to having to strangle the last whore he slept with.

- Jorah kidnaps Tyrion and says he's taking him to "the Queen!" But which one?!

 

 

Quotes

"There is only one god... a girl knows his name." Jaqen H'ghar

"I wish we had some wine for you - it's a bit early in the day for us." SHADE. -Margaery Tyrell

"You've been running all your life. Terrible things happen to your family and you weep; sitting in a darkened room mourning their fates. You've been a bystander to tragedy ever since the day they murdered your father. Stop being a bystander. Stop running. There's no justice in the world; not unless we make it. You loved your family. Avenge them." Littlefinger

"They're nasty little ****s, and nasty little ****s aren't worth crying over." Renly Baratheon via Brienne

"You're as stubborn as your father. And as honorable." "I can imagine no higher praise." "I didn't mean it as praise. Honor got your father killed." Stannis and Jon

"I heard it was best to keep your enemies close." "Whoever said that didn't have many enemies." Stannis the Mannis and Jon

"See you next Tuesday!" Arya

"It doesn't matter." - Qyburn, when the High Septon is addressing the small council and doesn't know who Qyburn is.

"It's even better luck to suck a dwarf's ****." Tyrion after being told it's good luck to rub a dwarf's head

"Someone who inspires priests and whores is worth taking seriously." Varys

"I need to speak to someone with hair." Tyrion after being cooped up with Varys for weeks.

 

Notes

- Choc called the reasons for the 'aging up' of Tommen almost two years ago. Bravo.

 

- Sophie Turner is hot. I don't know if it's the dyed hair, or what, but yes. The answer is definitely yes.

 

- I'm totally down for Littlefinger's plan to get Sansa back in Winterfell, and I won't judge anything too harshly until it plays out, BUT, there are some holes. First and foremost, he says he hasn't heard much about Ramsay, we obviously know Ramsay is a psycho. It doesn't go with everything we know about Littlefinger that he'd put Sansa in such danger. In fact, I find it odd that he revealed who she was so early. It seems like everyone is well aware that Sansa Stark is alive and well, and has been in the care of Petyr Baelish for some time. This is a big deviation from the book. Also, what exactly is this plan going to accomplish? Safe to assume he's trying to depose the Boltons, but how? Sansa will be all alone up there once he leaves for King's Landing. Even if she kills Ramsay and/or Roose it's not like that would do anything other than get her killed. Littlefinger always has a plan so I'm willing to let it play out, but I would like to make sure he has all his bases covered, because it would be unlike him if he didn't.

 

- Brienne's backstory scene. How great. I was really glad we got that. It's not hugely important in the grand scheme of things but it is great. It goes back to her quote last week when she talks about how all she ever wanted was to fight for a good lord.

 

- Jon's main reason for not accepting Stannis' offer is because of his Night's Watch vows. A better reason, for Show-Jon is that he knows there are actual Stark heirs (Bran and Rickon) still alive. This is a 'bad' show change.

 

- Dissention in the Night's Watch ranks. Olly hates the Wildlings more than anyone - he gives Jon a look when he calls them Free Folk when talking to Stannis. Alliser Thorne doesn't look all that pleased that Janos Slynt is about to get beheaded. There's lots of talk all over about how Jon is sympathetic to the Wildlings. And of course everyone knows at this point that he had sex with Ygritte.

 

- Maise's acting job in the scene where she gets rid of all of Arya's stuff was just superbly acted. Definitely holds up on the rewatch.

 

- The music stood out to me big time this episode, really great.

 

- Slynt's execution. Man. It was so good, but it could have been so much better. I'm really not a OMG THIS SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED VERBATIM FROM THE BOOKS kind of guy, but it really should have in this case. Here's how it goes down in ADWD (no spoilers, just throwing it in a box)

 

 

 

"Please take Lord Janos to the Wall—"

— and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again.

— and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him?

"—and hang him," Jon finished.

Janos Slynt's face went as white as milk. The spoon slipped from his fingers. Edd and Emmett crossed the room, their footsteps ringing on the stone floor. Bowen Marsh's mouth opened and closed though no words came out. Ser Alliser Thorne reached for his sword hilt. Go on, Jon thought. Longclaw was slung across his back. Show your steel. Give me cause to do the same.

Half the men in the hall were on their feet. Southron knights and men-at-arms, loyal to King Stannis or the red woman or both, and Sworn Brothers of the Night's Watch. Some had chosen Jon to be their lord commander. Others had cast their stones for Bowen Marsh, Ser Denys Mal-lister, Cotter Pyke … and some for Janos Slynt. Hundreds of them, as I recall. Jon wondered how many of those men were in the cellar right now. For a moment the world balanced on a sword's edge.

Alliser Thorne took his hand from his sword and stepped aside to let Edd Tollett pass.

[Janos continues to talk in the 3rd person and remains convinced Jon won't actually do it]

“If the boy thinks that he can frighten me, he is mistaken,” they heard Lord Janos say. “He would not dare to hang me. Janos Slynt has friends, important friends, you’ll see ...” The wind whipped away the rest of his words.

 

This is wrong, Jon thought. “Stop.”

 

Emmett turned back, frowning. “My lord?”

 

“I will not hang him,” said Jon. “Bring him here.”

 

“Oh, Seven save us,” he heard Bowen Marsh cry out.

 

The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, “Edd, fetch me a block,” and unsheathed Longclaw.

 

 

Where this scene still definitely succeeds is the subtle nod from Stannis the Mannis. That got a fistpump from me. Stannis is one of the great characters in ASOIAF.

 

- We get another mention of Greyscale - this time by Tyrion and the Red Priestess in Volantis. The last time was when Shireen and Gilly were speaking about it at the Wall. This has to be setting up for something important. A lot of people theorize that Greyscale will sweep across Westeros before the series is over. I don't know what they're setting up, but I imagine either Dany or the folks across the Narrow Sea will have to deal with it before too long.

[The Choc]

- Choc called the reasons for the 'aging up' of Tommen almost two years ago. Bravo

 

If I could bang Margaery Tyrell I'd be more than happy to send my mom halfway across the continent.