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Han will die in E7


Darth Ender
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Mace, Episode 1: I do not think the Sith could return without our knowing

And they didn't return without their knowing. Maul attacked Jinn on Tatooine, this incident was brought to Council's attention, and an investigation was started. Were the Jedi ever conceived as omniscient? Were they supposed to just "know" the Sith were always in the shadows? Is Windu saying what you think he said? Because to me he said that they've had an eye out for the Sith and haven't spotted them. That's just a case of bad luck on the Jedi's part, or good luck on the Sith's, but it doesn't say to me that Mace was arrogantly claiming omniscience.

 

Yoda, Episode 2: ...More and more Jedi have grown arrogant and impatient

Arrogant and impatient, sure, compared to Yoda, the oldest and most ideal Jedi Master. He might as well be saying "Kids these days...." and shaking his little cane at the younger Jedi. The latest generation is always lazier/dumber/more arrogant than the last one. Now imagine watching the next 30 generations as they "strayed" from your ideal! That'd be hard. But it wouldn't mean the opinion is an accurate reflection of the state of society or the Jedi Order.

 

And pretty much the entire council was shocked Palpatine was under their nose. They didn't want to think Dooku could have gone to the dark side. The Jedi are blind left and right and their arrogance keeps them from admitting fault or failure and they continue to be blind... and Palpy banked on it.

How else could they have reacted? Of the five stages of grief, the first is denial.

 

Should the old Jedi have been more coldly logical Vulcans? They were imperfect and were out-played in a long game by the Sith. Why didn't they "see" Palpatine/Sidious in their midst? I don't know, but I'm not a Jedi. I imagine Jedi/Sith/force-users have methods that extend beyond jumping high, running fast, and swinging a lightsaber without decapitating themselves. Some kind of "force-cloak", perhaps? Perhaps simply disciplined emotional control on Palpatine's part?

 

On the whole, the worldview of an ideal Jedi is pretty zen and doesn't have anything to object to. They fell from betrayal within their ranks - Anakin - and a long game of patience and plotting on the Sith's part.

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[Prefaced with, again, I am dumb as bricks. If I present a POV with holes, please be gentle perhaps apply lube with your retort. I seriously do not operate under the assumption what I write is infallible. And with that said...]

 

The Jedi fall for the same reason Anakin fell; they didn't listen.

 

The Jedi kept council to themselves, meanwhile Qui-Gon whatever else he may have been or became was the speaker of truth in The Phantom [Menace]. Qui-Gon listened and acted.

 

Anakin eventually falls because he refuses to listen and only acts. The Jedi fall because they eventually come around to hearing things but still do not listen and then only... well they don't even act, they just like to talk amongst themselves and ideally, as the films show, only to their selected elite.

 

We also see that ironically the Sith are hearing the Will of the Force. Palpatine is adept at it to the point he knows just who to look for, just who the Force is talking to, just who it is choosing to be the one to unseat Palpatine. If only Palpatine could have used his keen abilities to actually listen to, follow the Will of the Force. Alas this is not a discussion for "What If?" plot points.

 

Force Users are the and have a direct connection to the Force. Jedi listen and are supposed to act according to it's Will. Sith can hear it, but do whatever the fuck they want.

 

Unlike IRL where We as people of [insert a religious belief or whatever system of thought] usually look at Other people of [insert a different religious belief or whatever system of thought] and say, "You don't ****ing know shit. I know shit." None of Us actually know shit. In Star Wars they know shit and it's provable and quantifiable.

 

We cannot look at the Star Wars story and ponder if the Sith had a point. The Sith don't. Period. The Jedi, for the most part, are also ****ing stupid, but those who eventually listen and not just hear are able to become more and then act within the Will of the Force... The Force is the only true judge of what is "Good" and "Evil", anything against it's will is "evil" anything with it's will is "good".

 

Back IRL we just have to do our best to live in harmony and eventually... well I guess the ultimate answers will come when we can finally hear them.

 

Lies, Information and the control of it;

 

Do we see Jedi lie? Yes.

 

Are there circumstances where filtering information is prudent? Yes.

 

Is that lying? Yes.

 

No matter the intention can that be harmful? Yes.

 

Is it always? No.

 

eg.

 

A parent, a guardian, a teacher or an authority figure will often operate on the concept of Need To Know. This is sometimes paired with Ability to Comprehend.

 

This concept used with compassion, the desire for learning, a true progression and growth for all involved is applied with a caveat which is At Such Time You Are Ready, You Will Know.

 

On the flip side this concept is used to subjugate, to maintain the holder of knowledge's position of power and authority.

 

Palpatine tells Anakin only what Anakin needs to know for Palpatine to control him and maintain his own position. Palpatine also tells Anakin that he, Palpatine, knows more than he actually does.

 

Obi-Wan tells Luke only what Luke needs to know in order for Luke to be in a position, to be ready, to eventually know more and eventually listen to something bigger than even Obi-Wan.

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The restoration of balance was in removing the immeasurable power and influence of Palpatine. A Force User so strong he was subverting and holding off the Will of the Force. The Jedi were deaf, blinded, undoubtedly because they were full of themselves but perhaps also due to Palpatine's machinations.

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What about Dagobah and Yoda's training of Luke? There was some serious dark-side stuff in that tree stumpy thing.

That was the dark side in Luke. The tree was just scary and spooky, his own id brought out the vision of Vader.

 

Luke: What's in there?

Yoda: Only what you take with you.

 

I can't agree. The Jedi were out-maneuvered politically. I don't see any moral or emotional failings on the Order's part in the films. Their biggest failure was in breaking their own rules for acceptance into their Jedi training program. It's all Anakin's fault!

 

Mace, Episode 1: I do not think the Sith could return without our knowing

 

Yoda, Episode 2: (paraphrasing cause I refuse to watch this one unless the kid insists) More and more Jedi have grown arrogant and impatient

 

And pretty much the entire council was shocked Palpatine was under their nose. They didn't want to think Dooku could have gone to the dark side. The Jedi are blind left and right and their arrogance keeps them from admitting fault or failure and they continue to be blind... and Palpy banked on it.

 

While the Jedi in the PT were powerful, they were also arrogant. Their overconfidence was their undoing.

 

In ROTS, Obi-Wan's suspicion of Palpatine seemed to border on thinking there was more to the man being a simple power-hungry opportunist. At least that's the way I read it.

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The Sith were more than back by the time Maul's appearance was noted. One was in power, one was fighting them. In fact it was AFTER describing Mauls attack that Mace said NAH AINT SITH.

 

Yoda pretty much says outright they were tricked by Palpatine and should have seen it in ROTS.

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Wow, we've come a long way from Han will die! If he does, it won't be til the last one, though.

 

Now, as to the Jedi & the Sith. There was a certain amount of self-confidence on the part of the Jedi Order because, so far as they knew, the Sith were gone. I would imagine that, by the time TPM rolled around, Sith boogeymen were bedtime stories.

 

I interpret Mace's line in TPM about the Sith not returning without their knowing about it as a dismissal of Qui-Gon's assertion that the attacker was a Sith. Meaning that, "This guy can't be a Sith because, if there were Sith out there, we would have known it by now".

 

Obviously, a certain amount of arrogance there.

 

The way the EU handles the Jedi Order is that it explains how the Jedi become more and more instruments of the Republic. The more they did for the Republic, the more firmly entrenched they became until, finally, there was no Republic without the Jedi and no Jedi without the Republic.

 

Because the Jedi were being directed by the Republic, it would make sense that the Republic's failings would translate into the failings of the Jedi. It became harder and harder for them to succeed in truly keeping peace in the galaxy because they were being directed by an increasingly corrupt government.

 

A corrupt government that was also being manipulated by the Sith. Certainly, once Palpatine became Supreme Chancellor, anything the Jedi did was likely filtered through his agenda.

 

Their devotion to the Republic and the ideals it formerly espoused blinded them to its flaws and, in particular, the character of Palpatine until it was too late.

 

I suppose you could say the Jedi were too attached to the Republic.

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Attachment is forbidden. Jedi were not supposed to fear loss. Anger, fear, hatred are all dark side emotions. I guess my problem with the idea that the Jedi should've been less what they were and more of something else is that it strikes me as blaming the victim for the crime committed against them.

 

As for Han, I think 30 years is enough time for Ford to change his mind on something like killing off his character.

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[insert stupidself disclaimer]

 

The films display that emotions aren't the dark side, not even specific ones, it's what you do when you feel those emotions that can be the dark side.

 

Yoda, of course, gives that speech about emotions in TPM but Yoda is not the speaker of truth at that time. It's a swerve. We're conditioned to listen to Yoda. Yoda at that moment is wrapped up in the "dogma" of being a Jedi. Eventually Yoda is the first council member to shift back to listening to the Force, after contemplating the scolding Qui-Gon gave the council, but prior to that he's as deaf as they all are.

 

Staying on Yoda...

 

He moves to Dagobah. The EU says it's for [insert reasons], the films give no explanation except for the implication Yoda is hiding and contemplating.

 

On Dagobah there is The Cave. The EU says [insert quantifible dark side energy explanations]. Meanwhile the films say The Cave only has what you bring into it.

 

Let's examine this implication.

 

Yoda is hiding, sitting in contemplation on a primeval planet. A planet teeming with life. Life, as we're explicitly told and with consistency, is touched at all times by The Force. It's in everything and between everything.

 

At the end of the PT Yoda leaves places full of noise and agendas, granted forced to do so, and settles on a planet only full of life. Alone he sits and listens and waits.

 

Yoda takes Luke to The Cave. A cave in a swamp. A swamp and cave system which, while ominous in appearance, is shown to be filled with life. What better place for a Jedi to silence the noise and quiet the mind than a place overflowing with life? It would be similar but not exactly analogous with a silent room. There is no outside, material or worldly influence in The Cave. It's teeming with life, The Force, it will flood a Jedi's senses and they will experience only what they bring into it. The Jedi are supposed to listen to the Force.

 

If the Cave only has what you take into it, does this mean physically? Perhaps. Seems more likely it means consciously, emotionally, the metaphysical. That is where the film is seemingly pushing you to consider.

 

Luke observes the spooky look of the cave, he has preconceived notions of reality and he judges it. Arming himself he enters The Cave. Inside The Cave we see Luke encounter a reality, a vision. He's being spoken too, his mind over-whelmed with life energy, the Force, he has previously decided to interpret this as danger.

 

Luke encounters the embodiment of evil. Luke is a hero and he readies his righteous blade, literally shining with light against the darkness of evil. He attacks it. The hero "wins" and then he sees himself in the evil.

 

Think on this and the revelations of that film.

 

Luke is desperate with questions, consumed by notions. The Force is telling Luke what he needs to hear. Luke isn't listening. The "evil" that Luke desires to vanquish is Luke. Not only is it Luke, because he's on a path to confrontation, but it is Luke because Vader is his father.

 

In ROTJ we see Luke confront Yoda and Obi-Wan about not being told. He lashes out from ego and pride; essentially "I should have been told! I know what's best. I was ready." Hmm. In that moment he sounds not so dissimilar to his father in his youth. He is also retreading his own folly from the previous film, but given a moment to reconsider Luke realizes he wasn't ready to know. That he wasn't listening. And then he ponders about what he's heard... Yoda spoke of another. And then Luke, who's just sitting and listening to an embodiment of the Force hears without being told who the Other is. "Leia." Luke exclaims.

 

Later Luke travels with his fellow heroes to Endor. On Endor it's Luke who sees the Ewok's potential. It's Luke who tells Han to stay calm, give it a minute. Then given a moment to breathe, to listen, Luke realizes he's not where he is supposed to be. He's felt uncertain about this previously, but he pushed it aside, it was hero time after all. But now in this quiet moment Luke takes Leia aside and speaks to her just as Obi-Wan and Yoda had to him, just as he's realized the Force was. He leads her to a point, to a revelation and she connects it internally and with insightful clarity. She listened. Luke then leaves. Ready to be where he should be.

 

In the climax Luke momentarily teeters on the precipice of destruction. We see the dark side, Palpatine and Vader tempt Luke with heroism. Just like Anakin fell. "Stop listening." They are essentially saying. "You know you can only win with power and by vanquishing this evil in front of you." Luke attacks and then recoils at his decision. Luke backs away. He's scared, but he's taking steps back. He's backed away to quiet, hiding, trying to understand and listen.

 

And then the dark side pours it on more. "You're a hero. Stand up and fight or we'll have some fun with your loved ones." This is the same threat as ESB. The same threat and attack that Anakin continually was blasted with. "Fight, hero."

 

Luke attacks again. He is physically fighting Vader, but he's really fighting himself. That point is what Luke realizes when he sees he's "won". He realizes he's just retreading his failure in The Cave. He drops the title of the hero, of the fighter. He is a Jedi, he's heard, he has listened and now he acts as only he can.

 

This act is what Anakin suddenly realizes. It's not just his son he sees dying now. Anakin is now Luke as Luke was a moment ago. He sees he has "won" and it's not the path he should be on. The hero who became a villain, finally becomes a Jedi.

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[insert stupidself disclaimer]

 

The films display that emotions aren't the dark side, not even specific ones, it's what you do when you feel those emotions that can be the dark side.

 

Yoda, of course, gives that speech about emotions in TPM but Yoda is not the speaker of truth at that time. It's a swerve. We're conditioned to listen to Yoda. Yoda at that moment is wrapped up in the "dogma" of being a Jedi. Eventually Yoda is the first council member to shift back to listening to the Force, after contemplating the scolding Qui-Gon gave the council, but prior to that he's as deaf as they all are.

 

Staying on Yoda...

 

He moves to Dagobah. The EU says it's for [insert reasons], the films give no explanation except for the implication Yoda is hiding and contemplating.

 

On Dagobah there is The Cave. The EU says [insert quantifible dark side energy explanations]. Meanwhile the films say The Cave only has what you bring into it.

 

Let's examine this implication.

 

Yoda is hiding, sitting in contemplation on a primeval planet. A planet teeming with life. Life, as we're explicitly told and with consistency, is touched at all times by The Force. It's in everything and between everything.

 

At the end of the PT Yoda leaves places full of noise and agendas, granted forced to do so, and settles on a planet only full of life. Alone he sits and listens and waits.

 

Yoda takes Luke to The Cave. A cave in a swamp. A swamp and cave system which, while ominous in appearance, is shown to be filled with life. What better place for a Jedi to silence the noise and quiet the mind than a place overflowing with life? It would be similar but not exactly analogous with a silent room. There is no outside, material or worldly influence in The Cave. It's teeming with life, The Force, it will flood a Jedi's senses and they will experience only what they bring into it. The Jedi are supposed to listen to the Force.

 

If the Cave only has what you take into it, does this mean physically? Perhaps. Seems more likely it means consciously, emotionally, the metaphysical. That is where the film is seemingly pushing you to consider.

 

Luke observes the spooky look of the cave, he has preconceived notions of reality and he judges it. Arming himself he enters The Cave. Inside The Cave we see Luke encounter a reality, a vision. He's being spoken too, his mind over-whelmed with life energy, the Force, he has previously decided to interpret this as danger.

 

Luke encounters the embodiment of evil. Luke is a hero and he readies his righteous blade, literally shining with light against the darkness of evil. He attacks it. The hero "wins" and then he sees himself in the evil.

 

Think on this and the revelations of that film.

 

Luke is desperate with questions, consumed by notions. The Force is telling Luke what he needs to hear. Luke isn't listening. The "evil" that Luke desires to vanquish is Luke. Not only is it Luke, because he's on a path to confrontation, but it is Luke because Vader is his father.

 

In ROTJ we see Luke confront Yoda and Obi-Wan about not being told. He lashes out from ego and pride; essentially "I should have been told! I know what's best. I was ready." Hmm. In that moment he sounds not so dissimilar to his father in his youth. He is also retreading his own folly from the previous film, but given a moment to reconsider Luke realizes he wasn't ready to know. That he wasn't listening. And then he ponders about what he's heard... Yoda spoke of another. And then Luke, who's just sitting and listening to an embodiment of the Force hears without being told who the Other is. "Leia." Luke exclaims.

 

Later Luke travels with his fellow heroes to Endor. On Endor it's Luke who sees the Ewok's potential. It's Luke who tells Han to stay calm, give it a minute. Then given a moment to breathe, to listen, Luke realizes he's not where he is supposed to be. He's felt uncertain about this previously, but he pushed it aside, it was hero time after all. But now in this quiet moment Luke takes Leia aside and speaks to her just as Obi-Wan and Yoda had to him, just as he's realized the Force was. He leads her to a point, to a revelation and she connects it internally and with insightful clarity. She listened. Luke then leaves. Ready to be where he should be.

 

In the climax Luke momentarily teeters on the precipice of destruction. We see the dark side, Palpatine and Vader tempt Luke with heroism. Just like Anakin fell. "Stop listening." They are essentially saying. "You know you can only win with power and by vanquishing this evil in front of you." Luke attacks and then recoils at his decision. Luke backs away. He's scared, but he's taking steps back. He's backed away to quiet, hiding, trying to understand and listen.

 

And then the dark side pours it on more. "You're a hero. Stand up and fight or we'll have some fun with your loved ones." This is the same threat as ESB. The same threat and attack that Anakin continually was blasted with. "Fight, hero."

 

Luke attacks again. He is physically fighting Vader, but he's really fighting himself. That point is what Luke realizes when he sees he's "won". He realizes he's just retreading his failure in The Cave. He drops the title of the hero, of the fighter. He is a Jedi, he's heard, he has listened and now he acts as only he can.

 

This act is what Anakin suddenly realizes. It's not just his son he sees dying now. Anakin is now Luke as Luke was a moment ago. He sees he has "won" and it's not the path he should be on. The hero who became a villain, finally becomes a Jedi.

Fascinating, Torch.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

The Sith were more than back by the time Maul's appearance was noted. One was in power, one was fighting them. In fact it was AFTER describing Mauls attack that Mace said NAH AINT SITH.

 

Yoda pretty much says outright they were tricked by Palpatine and should have seen it in ROTS.

Not to mention, it wasn't so much that the Jedi found out about the Sith, it was the Sith who revealed themselves.

 

 

 

 

And even then, some in the council didn't believe it, because they arrogantly believed they would sense the Sith, when they didn't. And when Yoda made the observation that the council's vision, and by extension ability to detect the Sith were clouded, that is evidence enough that not only did their hubris blind them, but by that point, the Sith (namely Sidious) were so powerful, that they could hide in plain sight, and couldn't be detected.

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So the consensus is that it was the Jedi Order's own fault that they got wiped out. They were arrogant and complacent and oblivious, and these traits would have been their undoing anyway, eventually. They were hollow and decrepit as an organization but had a strong facade; they had rotted from within. They were going to topple for one reason or another; it was inevitable.

If the Jedi were on their way out, then the Sith merely hastened the Jedi Order's demise. That does not seem particularly impressive on the Sith's part, to help an Order on its way to self-destruction get there faster. They didn't engineer the Jedi's destruction, they just waited for them to be vulnerable and kicked them. It almost makes the Sith pointless in the story, much like Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

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But getting rid of the Jedi was only part of the Sith plan. The other part was making the Republic accept a dictator by engineering a war and playing both sides to A, get rid of the toughest opposition on both sides, and B making everything think they needed an emperor.

 

Sidious/Palpatine/The Emperor's plan wasn't to get rid of the Jedi, it was to take over the galaxy.

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The Sith took over the galaxy by taking advantage of pre-existing political trends. Palpatine just organized the existing factions into orderly opposition - a neat bit of political maneuvering, but one that didn't require him to be a Sith. Take away the Sidious persona, and Palpatine would've been just as credible a villain. So how important were the Sith, really? They spend a thousand years in the shadows, propagating their line two at a time, working toward galactic conquest somehow, but the Jedi are at fault for not picking up on their presence sooner?

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Certainly the films paint the Jedi as being at least partly responsible for their own downfall. Most likely not to the point where they would stop to exist, but to the point that they no longer were in balance with the Force themselves.

 

Of course it's all very basic storytelling that can be summed up with Good Guys are Good and Bad Guys are Bad. Lucas really screwed up by trying to add adult themes (politics, economics) to a very basic mythology that doesn't hold up on closer examination.

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It is odd as there have been so many rumors on this. One said that Ford had signed for three films and that he also required some movement on Indy 5. However Warner Bros has offered him a part in the Blade Runner sequel so who knows. It is not like he could not film them all but you have to wonder.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

So the consensus is that it was the Jedi Order's own fault that they got wiped out. They were arrogant and complacent and oblivious, and these traits would have been their undoing anyway, eventually. They were hollow and decrepit as an organization but had a strong facade; they had rotted from within. They were going to topple for one reason or another; it was inevitable.

 

If the Jedi were on their way out, then the Sith merely hastened the Jedi Order's demise. That does not seem particularly impressive on the Sith's part, to help an Order on its way to self-destruction get there faster. They didn't engineer the Jedi's destruction, they just waited for them to be vulnerable and kicked them. It almost makes the Sith pointless in the story, much like Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

I wouldn't use the term that it was the Jedi's fault. But they did underestimate the Sith, and the Sith took advantage of it. The Sith definitely hastened the downfall of the republic to seize power for themselves, but I would say the Jedi Order was merely an obstacle that stood in the way of that. The republic was old and decadent, and maybe could be argued that it was inevitible it would fall some day, and the Sith put plans in motion to exploit and hasten that (IE Naboo, the CIS seceding, Palpy playing both sides). It certainly be argued that the Jedi became rigid in their beliefs and probably were in need of reform, but I don't see anything that indicated the fall of the Jedi order itself was inevitable. Remember, the Sith strategy was one that was a 1000 years in the making. When you have a plan that takes that long to take fruition, its very hard, if not impossible to prepare against it. Also, and this is vague if you strictly go by the movies, but it is implied that the balance of the force has shifted. It is also mentioned by Yoda, that they have trouble viewing the future. I always took that to mean that Darth Sidious was actively using the Dark Side of the Force to diminish the Jedi Order's powers and abilities. It certainly worked enough to hide him from the Jedi in plain sight!

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So the consensus is that it was the Jedi Order's own fault that they got wiped out. They were arrogant and complacent and oblivious, and these traits would have been their undoing anyway, eventually. They were hollow and decrepit as an organization but had a strong facade; they had rotted from within. They were going to topple for one reason or another; it was inevitable.

If the Jedi were on their way out, then the Sith merely hastened the Jedi Order's demise. That does not seem particularly impressive on the Sith's part, to help an Order on its way to self-destruction get there faster. They didn't engineer the Jedi's destruction, they just waited for them to be vulnerable and kicked them. It almost makes the Sith pointless in the story, much like Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

The Sith put the Jedi on the path to self-destruction by restraining themselves for so long. The Jedi did a "woo we pwned the Sith" victory lap and then, as each century passed, the Jedi became more arrogant complacent and oblivious, while the Sith focused their power in secret. If the Sith had been impatient, and re-emerged even every 100 years, then the Jedi would have stayed on their toes. So the Sith are responsible for the Jedi developing those self-destructive traits.

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Indiana Jones was not pointless in Raiders.

 

He found the tomb. Also while he doesn't affect much else that's life. Sometimes we're caught up in something and all we can do is be ourselves and whatever happens happens.

They would have found the tomb anyway, it would have just taken longer. Plus the Ark would have went to Germany on the plan and killed a lot more the Germans if Indy would have not stopped it.

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