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No More Ham and Bacon at Nearly 200 Subways OMG!


Pong Messiah
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The edit notification may be able to be changed in the next major ipboard upgrade, that was going to be released in third quarter 2013. Otherwise IPS refuses to do anything.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

Halal option removed from Subway website to protect employees due to threatening/offensive messages they have received since the story broke.

 

:eek:

 

Also, while there hasn't been much new news on this story, from what little I've been able to glean, it looks like it has more to do with appealing to the regional customer base than bending to any sort of PC demands or hysterics.

 

So basically, the people being nastiest here are the ones sending threats/vulgarity Subway's direction.

 

-------

 

EDIT: Goddammit. Cerina or Brando, can you fix the edit window so we can have 1-2 minutes to fix minor spelling/grammar/formatting areas without the ugly "EDIT" mark showing up? That would be super!

So basically, both sides are now pissed: the non-Muslims can't eat pig because its off the menu, yet Muslims still can't eat at Subway because it's not halal meat. Yet people with good taste remain unaffected, because they don't frequent Subway. Brilliant. Almost sounds like a news story about Obamacare.

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No no no... they didn't take halal meat off the menu, they just don't allow you to search for it on their website -- you basically have to walk past the store and see the "Halal" sign in the window to know it's there. They are no doubt worried people are going to take a trip to the store to deface the building or worse, harass and/or harm the people who work there.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

No no no... they didn't take halal meat off the menu, they just don't allow you to search for it on their website -- you basically have to walk past the store and see the "Halal" sign in the window to know it's there. They are no doubt worried people are going to take a trip to the store to deface the building or worse, harass and/or harm the people who work there.

Wouldn't secret handshakes and crescent moons painted in the windows using a special paint that can only be seen with special sunglasses be more on the down low?

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Would it violate some truth-in-advertising law in the UK to just put a Halal sign in your window without actually getting special meat? I mean, any rational person knows that meat is going to taste the same whether blessed by some shaman or not.

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Diet and treatment, slaughter, and preparation can make a noticeable difference in the flavor of meat.

 

That said, you raise an interesting question. Something like 90% of halal animals are stunned (temporarily) before slaughter, which makes you wonder if the meat is truly halal anyway. This is only a matter of debate among hardcore adherents, tho, not something you see normals quibbling about.

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The edit notification may be able to be changed in the next major ipboard upgrade, that was going to be released in third quarter 2013. Otherwise IPS refuses to do anything.

IIRC, the old 5-minute editing window was a hack that Mandard had to reset every time we upgraded. Alas, once he died, the knowledge probably died with him.

 

(died = "as good as died, for all the good he's doing us now")

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An interesting article on stunning vs. not:

The stance of the Halal Advocates of America is that stunning should be avoided as much as possible and Muslims in the long term should move towards removing stunning completely from halal slaughterhouses. The Jews have historically taken a strong stance against stunning and do not allow it under any circumstance. Likewise, there are many Muslim leaders who are completely opposed to stunning and do not allow it. The Halal Advocates will do their best to educate the Muslim public with regards to the harms of stunning and plan to introduce a system to label products which are stunned and products which are not stunned. The Halal Advocates are also dedicated to working in the long term with Muslim businesses and the meat industry to build the infrastructure needed to eliminate stunning once and for all from the halal slaughter plants.
At the same time, the Halal Advocates acknowledge the scarcity of authentic halal products and understand that stunning is needed in the short term to meet the needs of the Muslim community. Therefore, after careful consideration, the Halal Advocates have decided to approve reversible methods of stunning in the short term for poultry and sheep under strict supervision to ensure that the animal does not die. However, the Halal Advocates will not allow lethal and irreversible stunning methods for cattle which will cause the death of the animal in a few minutes and will initiate cardiac arrest. There is a viable alternative in the form of the ‘kill box’ which restrains the animal for slaughter and eliminates the need to stun. The Halal Advocates have adopted a balanced approach in the short term with regards the issue of stunning and have consciously chosen the ‘lesser of the two evils’ in order to provide more options for Muslims to consume authentic halal products. The long term goal is to move closer to the Sunnah method of slaughter and stop causing extra pain to the animal through stunning.

 

 

Notice that "reversibly stunned" is considered a stopgap measure until stunning can be eliminated altogether. Wonder if the halal advocates will succeed?

 

It will be just as fascinating to see how this issue plays out in Europe which has a growing Islamic culture, but also a strong animal rights/welfare streak. Currently, ritualistic slaughter has been banned without prior stunning or severely limited in several countries, and halal/kosher slaughter is caught up in a tangle of religious/animal rights interests. Wheeeee!

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Oh dear.

 

I treated what you wrote in the thread you linked with exactly the amount of respect it deserved. Your rant, prompted by an article written by Pat Buchanan of all people, finished with you calling every single one of the the citizens of every democracy who are politically engaged in any way a bunch of trash-eating cocksucking rats. It was capped by a quote from Mussolini. I am not sorry for refusing to engage with you seriously then and, moreover, you claimed in that thread itself to have completely forgotten all about it until reminded six months later. I am surprised to hear now of the impression I made!

 

I am not going to choose to argue with you in the fashion you desire that Muslims are the minority of the UK or of any other country or city you've mentioned so far. Why am I not going to argue this? Because it's the truth and has no need to be argued; not to you, not to Theodore Dalrymple, not to, say, Mark Steyn (in regards to my own country, that is). You and they are the one asserting nonsense. You and they are the ones looking at a tiny minority of Muslims and making unproven xenophobic assertions about who they are, what they'll do in the future, how many there will be soon, and how things will change in the countries to which they have immigrated to (or are born into). My opinions on this ridiculous matter were stated in a single sentence in my first post to this thread immediately prior to me quoting your nonsense and responding to it.

 

I do not care very much if or how you engage with me in conversation. I do not care very much when you are displeased with how and if I engage with you.

 

If you post content that is reprehensible or nonsensical or both it is entirely possible you may find my reply not to your liking.

 

If you post content that is well intentioned and offered in good faith it is entirely possibly you may still find my reply not to your liking. I like you! I think you're great! I genuinely wonder sometimes whether you believe in what you say and if so then to what degree you believe in it. I have no interest in trying to change your mind about anything! I have no interest in changing the way I have oh so rarely engaged with you over the past, what, six years? Seven? Whatever.

 

However, out of some small consideration for you and for your convenience and the convenience of others, I have placed my remaining sarcastic quips and non sequiturs and one-liners and exclamation marks and immaturities and non-earnestnesses and quibbles and tangents and interpretive dances and poetry and, lest we forget, "unwashed, plebian existence" and feces covered homelessness behind a Spoiler tag! No one has to see it if they don't really reallly reallly want to.

 

 

 

 

I live in Europe. I travel to the UK several times a month for work and have been there probably over 30 times just in the last year alone.

 

Good for you! I'm sorry your xenophobic experiences with the icky dirty Islams there has completely coloured your normally sane approach to such things as numbers. I mean, I once argued with you way back in 08 (I don't care enough now to find the link) when there was polling data available about whether Barack Obama was going to be president or not with my gut level assumption that the US was too racist to elect a black president and I had been in the US, like, a kerjillion times! Did that make me right or did the polling data make you right? WELL WHO IS THE PRESIDENT OF AMERICA?

 

Between that and my educational background, I think I have at least a decent understanding of UK culture, and I think it also says something that the other UK native here agreed with my general sentiment, although also questioning my exaggeration.

 

Look, enough is enough. You and your educational background. Where did you go to school? Where exactly? I've lost track of the number of times you've claimed because you went to a fancy private school or went to a really good university you really know or understand something better than anyone else. Are you a Rhodes Scholar? Did you go to Harvard? Yale? I'm thinking U of Penn. Gut feeling.

 

Oh, and because someone else who lives in the UK agrees with you doesn't make you right. Plenty of people fear the Musulman and his sinister designs on their precious foodstuffs franchises named for a mode of transportation that, if memory serves, is just the kind of place you hate to find yourself in among the dirty poors!

 

It bores me, and is frankly a waste of my time.

 

You're a waste of MY time and you've never bored me! I find you very interesting!

 

Otherwise, like I said, this conversation is over, and this will be my last post to you on this thread.

 

After you say this then the next time you post it's, like, half about me. You repeat yourself a little about what you don't like about the way I post and throw in a few new things and analogies and it ends with you, irony of ironies, thinking other people should act like normal human beings. I know you know what you said and I know anyone else reading this knows what you said but, still, I can't help but feel like that stuff was aimed more my way than Cerina's and I feel the need to mention that here!

 

Still, the gods make Arrakis to test the faithful. Let's take a looksee!

 

A little different than RC- what he does is post a bunch of little sarcastic one-liners, many of them non-sequiturs, quibbles with little minute points here and there that are tangential to the main point, while using this faux cheerful voice (with a lot of exclamation marks and/or caps lock).

 

HEY!!!!!1111!!!!

 

This voice isn't faux cheerful. It is one hundred percent genuine pharmaceutics induced cheerfullness! I don't really feel all that good after I argue with you, or even before, but while the words come out of my fingers in reply to you I really do feel kind of happy. Pong wasn't far off in pointing out that I'm using you to make myself feel better!

 

I've tried engaging him before, as I posted above, and what he does then is just deliberately avoid laying out his point in a standard paragraph form and just replies with more sarcastic one-liners while avoiding any points you make, so you never really even know what he's trying to argue.

 

I once tried arguing with you with as much seriousness as I could muster about a topic I truly feel to be near and dear to my heart! And nothing came of it, at all. You seemed incapable of actually replying to the substance of anything I said and kept making demands of me to list more of the things I was listing! I'd love to say NEVER AGAIN but odds are eventually you'll catch me on a good day and touch on something I feel truly deserves a response in the manner to which you're accustomed!

 

BUT THAT DAY IS NOT TOOOOOODAY! Tonight? Tonight! That day is not tonight!

 

It's annoying and quite frankly, a waste of my time, which is why I'm not going to continue replying to him and indulge in his attention whoring unless he drops the schtick and actually tells me what his argument is.

 

You annoy me. You're a waste of my time. You're an indulgent attention whore but, seriously, never change for nobody never no matter how many times you come back from being banned.

 

Whenever I talk to him, it's kinda like we're two candidates at a town hall meeting, or a debate or whatever, and I show up and make my speech in standard outline form, saying what my points are, and then he responds by doing some interpretative dance and reading poetry.

 

I like this. I think I'm, what, Eugene McCarthy in this analogy?

 

Every post with him he has to act like he's doing some theater show addressing the fourth wall reader instead of talking to me..

 

IF ONLY I COULD FIND SOME WAY TO GET THROUGH TO YOU?!?

 

it reminds me of hipsters I know, where in every facet of their life they act like they're doing some type of in-life performance art, and after a while, it's just like- hey, can you act like a normal human being for a sec.

 

I already pointed out the irony in you talking about normal human beings, right? I'm gonna scroll up and make sure I did.

 

Makes it hard to communicate.

 

I just wonder sometimes. SO MUCH. Would you share your ridiculous opinions with your co-workers, with your relatives, with those parents whose death you so patiently await? Do they share them with you? Does everyone of your particular socio-economic class feel this way and talk to each other this way or are you slumming here with us? Do they feel this way and would never share it among themselves in the bold outright way you do? Are you Jewish? I think you're Jewish but I can't be sure. Do you secretly need to be secured in your nonsensically un-empathetic views of human nature and society by rejoicing in the fact that a bunch of dummies on the Internet have never successfully changed your mind about them? Is working in Europe a step up or a step down for you? Are you a character from a novel come to life? Like, is Henry James up in shamayim writing novels about our modern overclass and you've sprung from his brow fully formed and smoking a cigarette and drinking a scotch and snorting a line? How is it that you think your own vices are perfectly understandable indulgences but everyone else's are irresponsible lazy grotesques only explicable by their own weakness and lack of moral fibre? If most people are animals, I mean, aren't you an animal? What makes you a human and them animals? How can you understand yourself so well but be so befuddled by the creepy dirty poors? Did you want to be a lawyer all along or settle for it when it became clear medical school was out of your reach or beyond your limited ability to deal with other human beings with even a modicum of true kindness and sympathy? Why are you here and not blogging? Why aren't you the queen of the Dark Enlightenment blogosphere? Can't you see that the fact that liberals don't need to storm the Bastille anymore represents a triumph of liberalism and not an indication of its failure? Are you evil?

 

 

 

I will get in the last word on this topic bitches.

 

I sincerely doubt it. After all, well, we've only just begun.

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Well, that was certainly better RC, but as I said before, I'm not going to get dragged into a long back-and-forth with you until you lay out an actual argument to my general point in this thread, which for the third time, was this:

the general demographics and culture of the country is rapidly changing, and if anything was going to be done about that, it's certainly too late at this point. As such, it seems rather silly to be outraged over something like the story in the original post.


The fact that you continue to deliberately muddle that and attack a strawman argument that was based upon a sarcastic comment in my first post which I later explained was obvious hyperbole, tells me that you have no intent of having any serious discussion on this whatsoever, and furthermore, that for whatever reason, this seems to be an emotionally charged topic for you. Question- are you Muslim?

But be that as it may, like I said above, that conversation is over and the point of this post is really just to explain that once again, I decline to cut/paste quote-by-quote with you, no matter how long a post you write, until you actually argue the point I was making above and not a strawman. One side note though- I have to admit I am genuinely amused by your quips this time (no sarcasm). Especially your last paragraph.. good god, it sounds like you're almost having an emotional breakdown. Do I really get under your skin that bad? Wow. This might be the longest post I've ever seen you write! I guess I do. Well, that's pretty helpful information for me- I mean, you probably would've been better served by playing it nonchalant. I suppose I will briefly clear up some misconceptions about me that you have, since it is now apparent that you are fascinated with me. No, I'm not Jewish. I would've thought that obvious from my frequent criticism of AIPAC and zionism, whether that be explicility (here), or impliedly (here and here), and there are many other times I've posted as such. My parents were nominally methodist and catholic, although they stopped going to church decades ago and I was raised in a secular household. But while we're on the subject of religion, again, are you Muslim? I mean, you gotta be, right? Because speaking of the dark enlightenment (a silly phrase, that), whenever I post anything that draws from that area of the political spectrum, it's almost a 100% guarantee to draw you out of the woodwork, like a moth to a light. No, I never wanted to go to medical school. I did, however, want to go to a conservatory, until I realized I wasn't talented enough and I rather have a stable career and job. One last thing, because I'm admittedly curious:

 

I once tried arguing with you with as much seriousness as I could muster about a topic I truly feel to be near and dear to my heart! And nothing came of it, at all. You seemed incapable of actually replying to the substance of anything I said

 

When was this? Link please. If I did the same thing I'm criticising you of, then it's completely fair to call me on it and I'll go back and re-look at the thread.

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Eh. Find it yourself if you're so interested. Do not care about what you believe to be "completely fair", don't care about helping you satisfy your curiosity.

 

Not an emotionally charged topic. Not Muslim. No emotional breakdown. Yes, fascinated with you! Not going to argue with you about the Muslimmmmmeness of the United Kingdom and I'm actually somewhat disturbed by this "if anything was going to be done about that, it's certainly too late at this point" business. Could care less about your amusement towards me, genuine or not, sarcastic or not.

 

How many times do I have to say that I'm not going to do what YOU want me to do? I figure it's gonna be a couple more times for me, at least.

 

How many times are you going to say that you are a hundred percent positively not going to address me in this thread until I act the way you want me to act only for you to just go ahead and continue replying anyway?

 

Or, let me put it another way, why are you such a liar?

 

Tired! Funny how you answered some of my questions but ignored others.

 

Enjoy your helpful information.

 

ONCE AGAIN, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN

 

 

 

 

Well, that was certainly better RC, but as I said before, I'm not going to get dragged into a long back-and-forth with you until you lay out an actual argument to my general point in this thread, which for the third time, was this:

 

You just keep talking about how you're not going to talk to me!

The fact that you continue to deliberately muddle that and attack a strawman argument that was based upon a sarcastic comment in my first post which I later explained was obvious hyperbole, tells me that you have no intent of having any serious discussion on this whatsoever,

 

Brilliant deduction! WHAT POSSIBLE EVIDENCE COULD YOU HAVE FOR THIS?!?

 

Still, what you call a strawman argument, I call what you said and what you continue to claim to mean. My responses to your second post were deemed unworthy by your lights, pointing out where you were mistaken was deemed nothing more than a quibble, you saw impoliteness, snarkiness, and fightpicking where everything offered was simply a return in kind for the tone of how you choose to answer a simple single-sentence question. The only one who choose to deliberately muddle things is, from the beginning, you.

 

and furthermore, that for whatever reason, this seems to be an emotionally charged topic for you.

 

It's just a little bit rarer for me these days to do this. that's all.

 

Question- are you Muslim?

 

No, dummie. I'm a big old Jew.

But be that as it may, like I said above, that conversation is over

 

Hahahahahah! Seriously, though. How many times will you say this?

 

and the point of this post is really just to explain that once again, I decline to cut/paste quote-by-quote with you, no matter how long a post you write, until you actually argue the point I was making above and not a strawman.

 

It's never going to happen. Just like the UK will never be a Muslim country. Jeepers creepers, it's obvious. It's full to the brim of non-Muslims! Canada's got a better chance of becoming a Jewish state than the UK has of being a Muslim country. Perhaps your beloved Singapore will become Rastafarian, too.

 

Wow. This might be the longest post I've ever seen you write!

 

Oy. Every post I've ever read of yours feels like the longest post ever period.

 

 

I guess I do. Well, that's pretty helpful information for me- I mean, you probably would've been better served by playing it nonchalant.

 

So helpful! So useful! I'm sure you'll be able to maximize your utility to no end from the fact that I'd rather blather at you than do much of anything else!

 

I mean, you probably would've been better served by playing it nonchalant.

 

Uch. You're so tedious.

 

I suppose I will briefly clear up some misconceptions about me that you have, since it is now apparent that you are fascinated with me.

 

Thanks a bunch! And, again, it's interesting that you'll only address some of it and not the rest. Is everything uncommented upon not a misconception? I suppose so.

 

No, I'm not Jewish. I would've thought that obvious from my frequent criticism of AIPAC and zionism, whether that be explicility (here), or impliedly (here and here), and there are many other times I've posted as such.

 

I usually have a never-ending appetite for your stuff but I'm gonna take a pass at reviewing that stuff again. Or maybe I missed it the first time around.

 

My parents were nominally methodist and catholic, although they stopped going to church decades ago and I was raised in a secular household.

 

Secular? Pretty sure if there's one god you worship, it's Mammon.

 

But while we're on the subject of religion, again, are you Muslim? I mean, you gotta be, right?

 

Hah. Still no!

 

Because speaking of the dark enlightenment (a silly phrase, that), whenever I post anything that draws from that area of the political spectrum, it's almost a 100% guarantee to draw you out of the woodwork, like a moth to a light.

 

I'm not sure you know what I was talking about but nice mixed metaphor you peerless master of communication!

 

I did, however, want to go to a conservatory, until I realized I wasn't talented enough and I rather have a stable career and job.

 

I believe the part about wanting the stable career. But, seriously, not talented enough? Are you sure you just weren't lazy? If you'd practiced more and had that all important will power I'm sure you would have been great!

 

If I did the same thing I'm criticising you of

 

Oh, don't worry. I don't think there's any hypocrisy. I'm sure by your lights it was nothing like what you're criticizing me for, claiming you won't respond until I do so as you desire, and then choosing once again to respond anyway!

 

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My opinions on this ridiculous matter were stated in a single sentence in my first post to this thread immediately prior to me quoting your nonsense and responding to it.

Oh no the sinister Musulman and the grotesque Hebrew eat at our precious 'restaurants' too what will become of us waaaaahhhhh

Outside of white nationalists and other fringe folk, nobody was upset about Muslims eating at anybody's precious Subway, nor were any normals complaining about halal choices being made available in select stores. And while you wouldn't expect Muslim or Jewish customers to order, say, a BMT or Chicken & Bacon Ranch, I have never heard or read of people from either religion not eating at Subway. The backlash occurred when certain items were pulled off the menu in order to cater specifically to Muslim customers. A choice that, to the best of my understanding, occurred only in stores that served a high percentage of Muslim customers, and only if they were also receiving complaints about the presence of ham and bacon -- so I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that these Subways already had Muslim customers, some of whom no doubt chose to eat inside the store.

 

Your stated opinion on this ridiculous matter doesn't make much sense. Well, unless you are secretly a white nationalist or anti-Muslim/Jew, and unless there is evidence that Muslims avoided Subway altogether prior to select stores eliminating the threat of pork contamination.

 

Or maybe (MAYBE!!!) this was just one of those muddled one-liners CM was talking about! You know, those little outbursts you occasionally indulge in here! The ones stuffed to the gills with self-conscious affectation and sing-song tone that are always dripping with self-righteousness! The ones that are inevitably worded in such a way as to avoid taking a stand or making any sort of cogent point! The ones that allow you to feel so very, very good about yourself while safely avoiding any real argument or discussion because nobody is sure what you're actually talking about!

 

:eek:

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Oh, you too now?

 

My stated opinion is that it's no big deal. Anyone who think it's a big deal is wrong and a whining complainer and I suspect the secret source of their feelings on the matter is, yes, they don't like the thought of these people they dislike eating at the kind of place they like to eat. I'm not a mindreader. It's just a hunch. Carrie Mathison's question indicates to me that for some folks this might be about something other than that, that they feel the entire country is going the way of the Muslim, and it seems like that's really what she thinks.

 

I mean, for real now Pong. Let's get all stand-taking here. Let's really get all cogent-y and get our arguments all real and discussion-y. Let's sit down and really Lyceum this whole thing out. A bunch of restaurants mostly catering to religious Muslim patrons serving food that's acceptable to Muslims and keeping food that's unacceptable to Muslims off the menu. Why is this even news? I mean, the answer is that it's what the Daily Mail readers enjoy reading about. Like you said, it's tabloidy. Is it news to the world that there's a flourishing number of Dunkin Donuts franchises in the US that only serves kosher? I hope not.

 

I am sorry you don't see the sense in what I said. I'm not sorry you felt my words mischaracterized the opinions of bigots. I can't claim to truly understand your reasoning about why what I wrote doesn't make sense. Specifically, here's the bits I don't follow :

 

And while you wouldn't expect Muslim or Jewish customers to order, say, a BMT or Chicken & Bacon Ranch, I have never heard or read of people from either religion not eating at Subway. The backlash occurred when certain items were pulled off the menu in order to cater specifically to Muslim customers. A choice that, to the best of my understanding, occurred only in stores that served a high percentage of Muslim customers, and only if they were also receiving complaints about the presence of ham and bacon -- so I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that these Subways already had Muslim customers, some of whom no doubt chose to eat inside the store.

 

Well, unless you are secretly a white nationalist or anti-Muslim/Jew, and unless there is evidence that Muslims avoided Subway altogether prior to select stores eliminating the threat of pork contamination.

 

If you want to explain this to me, fine. I get maybe one sentence of what's written above, tops.

 

It seems that you might have a problem with the way I post. I am perfectly fine not living up to the standards of the Lyceum when it comes to cogency and real arguments and discussion.

 

It seems to me to be that an inability to understand what someone else is talking about has never been a barrier in this forum to the sort of real argument and discussion I assume you mean. I don't understand more than half of what you said and here I am replying to you! I'd love to get this substantive dialogue going here between me and you, to really hash out where we differ in regards to what sort of food Subway should serve, but a quick review of what you said here and here shows me that I am in complete agreement with what you posted.

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  • 1 month later...

 

 

 

Isn't halal meat pretty much the same thing as kosher meat?

 

There are a lot of similarities, but definitely not the same. One is blessed, the other is not, different parts of the animal are used (especially with beef cuts), preparation rules are different, too (one allows mixing with dairy products but no wine, the other allows wine but no dairy, etc).

 

 

:eek:

 

Yeah, kosher is a lot more strict than halal. Basically, Muslims can eat at a kosher place without a problem, but Jews cannot necessarily eat halal.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

Well, all I can say Pong is while I love me a Hebrew National hotdog , that's the only dog I'll eat, and not for religious reasons, but because I don't like byproduct meat, and I think Kosher meats are tasty (and by extension I am sure so are halal meats) as far as I'm concerned, strict fundy Halal and Kosher eaters are pretty much the same level of nutty as hippy-ass, godless militant vegans. In the words of Vince Vega, "bacon tastes good, pork chops taste good."

 

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