187 replies to this topic

[Darth Lohr]

Was watching an old episode of Friends last night and I have to say not once did I look at Paul Rudd and think "superhero". Of course, I haven't really seen or heard anything to get me remotely optimistic about this movie, so maybe not having any expectations will leave me open to being pleasantly surprised. Or something.

[Darth Krawlie]

Marvel's track record is enough for me to give them the benefit of the doubt for both this and guardians of the galaxy.

[Darth Lohr]

Oh, Guardians I've actually come around on and become significantly intrigued. Bit of a different movie than this, though.

[The Human Torch]

I have to parrot Driver. I have a man crush on Rudd. I mean I don't even care that he's not strawberry blonde like Pym is. Rudd as Ant-Man in a film by Edgar Wright... sold!

[Darth Krawlie]

It's being released after. Joss whedon has said they're going in a different direction for Ultron's origin, meaning not by Pym.

[Exodus]

It's a Marvel movie. Odds are it'll be no less than average, and even then it'll be a good average.

Edited by Exodus, 22 December 2013 - 04:49 PM.

[ShadowDog]

That's because he was hanging out at the bottom of the barrel with Cricket-Man and Skyboy when the comic writers got desperate.

[The Human Torch]

Ant-Man is a pivotal character in the Marvel U. Non-Marvel geeks don't know him because he's, quite honestly, an unmarketable wife-abusing douche nozzle. His costume and power set however really is full of fantastic elements to exploit, he could have been big but the "give him reality, edge" movement by House of Ideas way way back in the day might have been short sighted in his case. As a marketable Disney character he'll have to be sanitized, which will surely annoy hardcore geeks.

[The Maker]

If they go with Hank Pym and characterize him like they did in the first season of Avengers: Earth Mightiest Heroes, they would be on the right track! He really was pretty great on that show.

[Driver]

Was the original 616 Pym a wife-beater too ? I thought it was just the Ultimate version-- or did they just Ultimize his wife-beatery?

Which brings up a point... Remember when Ultimate Spidey was killed? Or when the new 52, Earth 2 Alan Scott was revealed as gay? The mainstream press, and by default casual fans, who were not continuity aware didn't for a second realize these were not the most well-known version of those characters.

When they get ahold of Ant-Man = wife beater there's gonna be some PR drama.

[NumberSix]

Was the original 616 Pym a wife-beater too ? I thought it was just the Ultimate version-- or did they just Ultimize his wife-beatery?

 

The classic incident in question occurred back in the early '80s when he was still Yellowjacket.  It was a year or so before I started reading Avengers (I started around when She-Hulk first joined) and I'm not sure the Essential Avengers volumes ever got that far, but the situation involved him punching her and them getting divorced over it.  I've never read the full, original story for myself. 

 

I never touched Ultimates, so I'm afraid to ask how that turned out in Millar's hands.

[The Human Torch]

If I recall right [about the original storyline] Marvel tried to soften the blow, pun unintended, by having a multiple-persona suffering Hank Pym do the deed... but in a way that might have made it worse. Poor Ant-Man is a back issue away from a lifetime subscription.

Edit: Clarified + From what I recall about the Ultimates they had the Hulk... umm... attempt to mate with everything. So I can't believe that Hank was handled any lighter, but I don't remember for certain.

Edited by The Human Torch, 28 December 2013 - 01:20 AM.

[Indymion]

Ultimate version was worse than the slap he gave her in the main comics! He pretty much beat her and then when she shrunk down to hide from him, he sent his ants after her. She ended up being hospitalized. UPym was a major douche canoe!

[Darth Lohr]

Really, the whole idea of "wife-beating douche" is overblown (at least for the original character). Like Six said, it was during the Yellowjacket days, firstly  - which means it's not technically relevant to an Ant-Man movie, since he was fairly normal as Ant-Man. In fact, becoming Yellowjacket coincided with (resulted from) his whole going bat-sh*t crazy. His whole personality changed then (which I remember aggravating me at the time, because I had really liked him) and the incident with Jan...

 

 

 

...was a one-time thing that happened during his "paranoid schizophrenic" period. So, he wasn't a habitual abuser or anything. Rather, it was just one of a string of bad actions/decisions during that period. 

[The Human Torch]

Fair but also Rationalizing Rationalizing. ;-)

[Darth Krawlie]

I killed a bunch of people once. But it was only once. So it's not that big a deal.

[Driver]

you weren't yourself.

[Brando]

It's pretty obvious that the hussy had it coming.

[The Human Torch]

Well Wasp is wearing a nightgown and heels...

[Darth Lohr]

Why, that's ex-act-ly the same thing, Krawlie! Thanks for boiling my point down into something so easily relateable to us all! 

 

So, tell me: Guy A goes home and beats his wife black and blue, night after night, year after year and Guy B is drugged by somebody and in his drug-induced fit of anger lashes out and hits his wife for the first time in his life - do you view those two people exactly the same? Because that's what happened with Pym in a nutshell. As I said, that incident was one of several bad things he did, but he was effectively mentally ill at the time and said mental illness was actually caused by a villain (though I don't remember who, offhand).

 

So, yeah, it was a horrible thing that happened - but Janet wasn't the only victim. What happened to her was directly a result of what happened to him. It seems strange for a character, a hero for that matter, that's existed for over fifty years to be defined by one action, especially an action that in a very real sense was not even his fault.

[Driver]

You're using logic that he's real and we're misjudging him. That's the same silly argument with Man of Steel that Superman had no choice but to kill Zod. The writers put him in that corner by choice.

We're judging Pym in a vacuum, we're judging him by the fact that Marvel writers have never let us forget it and have made it part of his mythos the same as Tony Stark's alcoholism or the stick up Scott Summers ass.

[Darth Lohr]

Actually, my original point was that the "douchey wifebeater" aspect was far from an integral part of his character and hardly typifies him, particularly as Ant-Man. To put him in a vacuum involves looking at him as a whole. The peanut gallery started making real life comparisons, so I simply did the same to make my point. Sorry, Tank, but I don't know how to use logic other than if the characters are real. We're not dealing with comedy, surrealism, or a farce. Despite the suspension of disbelief, there is a certain aspect of realism that is striven for in these books and movies in the characters themselves. So, if you're discussing or analyzing one of these characters, what other sort of logic is supposed to be used?

 

I never said anyone misjudged him, for that matter. Except that it's factually inaccurate to label him as a guy who went around habitually slapping around women or that that one action really gives you a clear picture of what the story really was. His deteriorating mental state was the bigger picture and, if anything, the more defining character trait that came out of that period was the inadequacy issues that developed. That and the (occasional) lingering guilt about how he treated Janet (including, but not limited to, that incident).