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There are MANY flaws in libertarian thinking (I abandoned my brief fling with libertarianism when I realized that), but the big one is the overly naive world view. LIbertarianism depends on people being much more noble and ethical than they truly are. The idea that people will treat each other with respect, act ethically and morally at all times, WITHOUT being coerced into it via the threat of force, is just starry-eyed optimism that denies human nature. It's the same flaw that is at the core of those who support Communism as well, strangely enough. Both depend upon the existence of a perfect humanity that simply does not exist.

 

Ever heard the phrase "you can't legislate morality"? The fact is that people are, for the most part, gonna do whatever they wanna do. Sure some people are noble ethical people - and some people aren't. I've never robbed a bank. Even if it became legal to rob banks, I still wouldn't do it. I just have no desire to. I think this is why the average person isn't a rapist or murderer. Not because they are such a noble, upright person. (Though that's probably the case for a sizable minority.) I think that it's mostly because most people have no desire to do such things. Starry eyed optimism has nothing to do with it.

 

I treat other people with respect as much as I'm able to - and I'm not coerced into doing that. I'd act just as ethically and morally even if there were no state.

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Maybe the "people" that we should be most concerned about in a libertarian world would be those "corporate persons" who tend to put profit over and ahead of any externalized cost of that profit-- pollution, systemic risk, etc. I don't really think that a libertarian stance fails on an individual level so much, because like you point out Joey, most people are not inclined to be murderers or rapists regardless of what the letter of the law says. But when you incentivize negative behavior through things like the profit motive, this is where libertarianism fails. The market will just "regulate itself." Yeah, right. Just like the financial firms circa 2008 regulated themselves.

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Guest Letsgo_7_7

Ev- I'm on my iPhone so a longer response to come, but your post is sorta daily kos like and not what I've come to expect from you. Corporate personhood? That's a legal concept that has nothing to do with regulation and has to do with shareholder liability. And as someone that understands finance, you know the recession is a lot more complicated than the broad strokes you are describing it as. Come on man. You know this stuff.

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Oh, you don't have to lecture me on corporate personhood Letsgo. I'm very familiar with the concept. I was just extending the word "person" in this context to expound upon the earlier comments about how "people" aren't generally murderers or rapists. I was making a false equivalence-- I realize that the personhood of a corporation is a very different thing than the human beings that exercise individual rights and libeties. But in making that equivalence, I was pointing out what I consider to be the biggest flaw of libertarianism-- its extension to economic policy. As I posted on another thread, I am largely libertarian when it comes to individual, social issues (think of these as "people" issues such as prostitution, drug use, etc.). And yes, I know the inner-workings of what drove the latest recession moreso than the average person-- again, I was painting in broad strokes to simply point out an example of how I feel libertarianism fails (markets regulate themselves). I wasn't making a sweeping statement about that being the sole cause of the recession. Give me credit-- I AM pretty smart, though maybe my choice of words doesn't always convey that intelligence.

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Why can't there be a socialist who aligns with Johnson on every issue starting with "guns" down to the bottom of the list? It's always a toss-up between the progressives, who have the economic platform I like but with a bunch of meddlesome politically correct nonsense on domestic social issues, or the libertarians, who's idea of leaving people alone to manage their own affairs, which I agree with on social issues, also entails throwing us all to the corporate wolves where economic issues are concerned?

Kucinich.
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Still and all, I long for the days when being politically left meant socialism, not femdom.
In most places, I think it still does.

 

Also, while I despise Kucinich as a humanoid and hate the song he sings, he deserves respect for being consistent on most issues, and agree with him about half the time -- about 13% more than I agree with most politicians.

 

:eek:

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I don't really talk about it - feminism leastwise, all of that much. At least I don't think I do, unless you take my overall criticisms of the new left as a whole to be in reference to that specifically, which isn't really my intention. I try to be a "renaissance man" so to speak.

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You do beat the anti-feminism drum a lot more frequently than perhaps you realize Kurgan.

 

It is an issue to me, and I'll admit that I can troll on the matter some times. I'll admit that in the past I've gotten a little carried away on the matter. Claims that most women are raging anti-sexualist and man haters are, I'll confess, a wee bit over the top. Not to mention woefully incongruent with my personal experience.

 

But overall I stick to my "not-guilty" plea. I've shown in the "war on women" thread that I'm no enemy of women's rights per-se. The right wing of the G.O.P's take on this matter literally chills my blood. I really do think they're a case of "if you're not panicing, you just don't know how bad it really is."

 

I'm more concerned with instances where women's often - though not always - legitimate grievances with men in their personal lives are politicized and blown up into broad, sweeping generalizations made against whole swaths of the population. What I said about femdom I do suspect to be a driving psychological factor, probobly subconsciously, with an element in leftist thought, not all leftists. Just as I strongly suspect un undertone of maledom - again subconsciously, since such desires are generally considered taboo - drive some on the far right. No, not all liberals are raging matriarchalists just itching to sharpen up the garden shears and go start collecting testicles. Any more than not all conservatives are neanderthals who think "rape is God's will" and the like. Yet in both cases, that end of the spectrum seems to be a lightning rod for that type of person. It's quite telling to me just how sexually aspected both polls on the political spectrum are. I think it's something Sigmund Freud would have a lot to say about were he alive to see it.

 

But on the overall question of feminism and women's rights, I think my stances in the war on women thread should make it clear. If the G.O.P keeps this up, they'll soon be apologizing to the Taliban.

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you should pay more attention to Jerome Corsi, he has done what others have NOT done. Jerome Corsi has personally traveled to Hawaii, Kenya Africa, & other relevant locations in the search for the COMPLETE TRUTH & the obvious conclusion based on his own research is that barry soetoro (a k a barack hussein obama) was in fact a citizen of Indonesia, was NOT born in Hawaii, & therefore could NOT possibly be eligible to be president of the United States of America according to U S law.

 

Maricopa county Arizona sheriff Joe Arpaio deputized some former law enforcement officers to form an independent posse that also did their research on the supposed long form birth cerificate for "barack obama" & they came to the same obvious conclusion that several other document experts had already arrived at...that the document was an obvious forgery. now ask yourself after all the discussions about obama's lack of a birth certificate over a period of more than 2 1/2 years why would something that is obviously forged be released to the public? the answer is very simple...he doesn't have a real one that would allow him to legally be president.

 

you wrote "You just can't accept that other people would chose not believe in rumours perpertrated in an email during a campaign season." what i have a hard time with is the fact that so many people could be so gullible as to believe the forged birth certificate is real...people could be so gullible as to believe the B S coming out of obama's mouth. it has NOTHING to do with rumours, it is all about the FACTS that you & others refuse to acknowledge because they don't fit your liberal left-wing agenda.

 

What I don't understand is this. Isn't the barn door closed? Mr. Soetero has almost completed a full term in office. This is what scares me about America. These people are out there. I don't know what jobs they hold or what they do, but I'm scared for the direction America's taking.

 

Oh and this guy totally believes that snopes is lying. About more than this.

 

He then calls me a liberal. SHOCKING! Because I simply started an argument on the internet about one terrorist does not make all muslim people terrorist - otherwise the catholic church would be a terrorist. I think he's going to have an anuerysm. I've been really amused by this whole thing.

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My Facebook policy is very simple. Post an occasional glib photoshopped e-card that expresses an obnoxious political belief and I will hide it.

 

Post multiple glib photoshopped e-cards that express obnoxious political beliefs one right after the other, especially within minutes, and I reset you to "Important Updates Only".

 

 

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My Facebook policy is very simple. Post an occasional glib photoshopped e-card that expresses an obnoxious political belief and I will hide it.

 

Post multiple glib photoshopped e-cards that express obnoxious political beliefs one right after the other, especially within minutes, and I reset you to "Important Updates Only".

 

I only share the ones that contain comedic value. Just FYI. Don't de-friend me!

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Oh, I don't defriend! I respect the right of other people to post what they want, but I have some friends on FB who post e-cards one right after the other within mere minutes and my feed is clogged up by this stuff.

 

So those people, who regularly do this, get reset to Important Updates. You would be amazed how little of substance they apparently post.

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So my friend that I mentioned in another thread who went on an anti-gay rant... his mom posted

 

Why do we vote if the electoral vote is all that matters? Plz answer...

 

And all the responses are how it's un-American, how Ohio doesn't deserve that many, and how if it was up to THE PEOPLE Obama would have lost by a blowout. This from a woman who regularly says how great the Constitution is. And who posted the "purely loving my husband I've never met" shirt I posted earlier in this thread.

 

Guys. I think hate America. I really think I do.

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