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A Song of Snowflakes and Posies Discussion Thread


182 replies to this topic

#176
Iceheart

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I just think it's so funny that people think I'm the ragepuppy on the board now.

 

I used to get so much shade around here for being such a Pollyanna.



#177
The Choc

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I wasn't bothered, just merely responding to something posted on the board.



#178
Ryn

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From the TV show thread.

But in the books why would Vary's want Dany to get wise counsel?

It's been awhile, but isn't it fairly clear he is all in for the Targaryens? Or at the very least all in against the rest of the jokers?

He's in it for the Blackfyres.


So, for us viewers-only, please elaborate.

#179
Lucas1138

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Basically, one of the Aegons legitimized all of his Great Bastards when he was on his deathbed (creating a branch of the Targaryen line - Blackfyre). Some of these tried to rise up and claim the throne for themselves (Blackfyre Rebellions). The idea is that Young Grif (the person who book-Varys set Tyrion up with for a time, who is on his way to Westeros with an army of sellswords) isn't actually Aegon Targaryen, but a Blackfyre descendant. There's some evidence that Varys has Blackfyre heritage so that's where his loyalties lie.

 

This is a gross oversimplification (as is anything less than pages and pages when you're talking ASOIAF unfortunately). Choc is much more well versed in this theory than I am, I think, so he will be able to sum it up a lot better, but I can at least point you in the right direction for some extended reading.

 

Reddit - Complete Analysis of Blackfyre Theory


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#180
The Choc

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I can maybe get a bit more into it. Aegon the Unworthy Targaryan had many, many bastards. He also had several Great Bastards which were bastards born of noble women. The eldest was named Daeron. His elder natural son was Daemon. Now there was a problem with Daemon, he was a bookish, non warrior who married a Dornish woman and brought alot of Dornish influence to court, which people hated. Daeron on the other hand was everything a King should be. A powerful warrior, big strong, decisive. People loved him, but he was a bastard.

 

On his deathbed Aegon legitimized all his bastards and he also left the Valyrion steel sword of House Targaryan to Daeron. Some took this to mean that Aegon wanted Daeron to succeed him as King. Daeron was actually hesitant but eventually agreed to form his own house, name it after the sword and make a claim on the throne.

 

This tore the Seven Kingdoms apart as many houses backed Daeron and rose up against the Targaryans. Eventually the rebellion was put down and Daeron killed but some of the Great Bastards escaped to Essos. The 2nd oldest Great Bastard, Aegor Rivers formed a company of sell swords called the Golden Company. Their long term mission was to eventually place  a Blackfyre descendant on the throne of Westeros. The Golden Company is famous for never, ever breaking a contract.

 

Now we get to the events of the books. In book 5 a new character emerged claiming to be Aegon Targaryan, the son of Rhaegar Targaryan who was supposedly smashed against the wall by the Mountain. However there are several clues that he may not be Aegon Targaryan but in fact could be Aegon Blackfyre. It's even possible that Aegon doesn't realize who he really is.

 

This is copy and pasted from a previous post in this thread which shows some of the evidence that he is actually a Blackfyre:

 

The Theory in detail:
Everyone wonders why Illyrio and Varys are backing Aegon. They only say its because they feel he would make a good King. But in this theory Illyrios dead wife was a Blackfyre, Aegon is their son and this is why he and Varys are trying to place him on the throne.
Things that back up this theory

1-Dany's dreams in the house of the undying about a Mummers Dragon. To a legit Targaryan, a Blackfyre would be a fake or mummers dragon.

2-The Golden Company were originally formed by an exiled Blackfyre for the express purpose of placing a Blackfyre on the throne. They have never broken a contract, until now. WHen asked why they broke this contract Illyrio says "some contracts are written in ink, some in blood." Essentially they only broke a contract because they now finally have a chance to fulfill their original purpose of placing a Blackfyre on the throne.

3-Tyrion sees a statue in Illyrios manse and thinks it is of Aegon, but it turns out to be a young Illyrio.

4-Illyrio specifically says that only the male line of Blackfyres has died out, but the female line lived on.


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#181
The Choc

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Okay, want to bring up something that could possibly happens in the books that has happened on the show. I know that could be a waste of time but here goes.

 

Cersei getting pregnant and the ramifications. When she first said it I thought "what is the point of this, what role could this baby play going forward?" My first inkling was to think maybe just in terms of bringing Jaime closer to Cersei or maybe having Jaime kill a pregnant Cersei being even sadder for him or maybe he won't kill Cersei because she is carrying her child. Then I thought of something else. When Cersei announces that Jaime is the father isn't this going to cause everyone to go "Wait, so those other kids weren't Robert's son, weren't Baratheons at all and never should have ruled. You betrayed Robert and have no right to be Queen." Cersei rules through her marriage to Robert, not due to being a Lannister.

 

Now here is another theory, which is that Gendry is Robert and Cerseis one and only son. Here is the thought process. Cersei did get pregnant by Robert once and the child died as a newborn. My thinking is this, Cersei got knocked up but during the course of her pregnancy decided she did not want Roberts son and that if any of her sons would rule the Kingdoms it would be a son of hers with Jaime. So she planned to have the baby killed shortly after birth. However once she has the baby she can't bear to have her son killed. So she has someone switch the baby with some lowborn whelp who looks enough like baby Gendry to fool Robert and others. She has that baby poisoned  and has Gendry snuck out to fleabottom.

 

The only thing Gendry remembers about his mother is that she was blonde and sang to him sometimes. My thinking is this, at first Cersei would sneak out of the Red Keep and go see Gendry and sing to him. However once she had Joffrey and the other 2 children her interest in her first child from Robert waned as she only cared about her children with Jaime. Eventually she stopped visiting her first born altogether.

 

So let's combine these 2 possibities. Once people realize that Cersei betrayed Robert and has no real right to any Baratheon claim on the Throne and couple that with perhaps finding out Robert did have a trueborn son there could be some who want that trueborn son on the throne.



#182
Lucas1138

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Doesn't Maggy the Frog's prophecy negate this possibility? Only three children will she have, gold will be their crowns and gold will be their shrouds.



#183
The Choc

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Does every prophecy need to be true?

 

My reading of what Cersei says about her son is a mix of book and show. On the show she claims that the baby was born and died shortly after childbirth, whereas in the book she claims the baby was aborted.

 

Again though not every prophecy has to be totally true or can't be twisted to fit different scenerios. I don't actually think the Gendry thing is true, although its interesting and I don't totally discount it. The books don't waste much and mentioning an earlier pregnancy by Cersei combined with Gendry remembering that his mother is blonde may mean something.

 

I do think though if Cersei is pregnant and announces it as Jaime's child will have some unintended consequences.





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