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Witch King VS Gandalf The White


78 replies to this topic

#1
white wizard

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Is there anyone who thinks the Gandalf vs Witch King scene in ROTK EE was terrible, unrealistic and undramatic? It's stuck in my head thinking how can a "dark rider" defeat a Maia, sort of close to the power of Sauron himself? I hate extended version for that only... Like fine the image is awesome with Gandalf and Pippin on Shadowfax with the WK on the fell beast, but make a proper duel, it would be really cool! Plus it doesnt make sense, cause in the book Gandalf the GREY defeated all 9 nazgul on weathertop, and WK like flees in Minas Tirith after the breach of the gate. I'm talking to much, so u guys swarm!

#2
qui kal jinn

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I quite liked that scene. Gandalf was defeated and it shows just how powerfull the witchking is.

#3
The Maker

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I loved the set-up for that scene, but was disappointed with the outcome. It was one of the scenes I was looking forward to the most.

#4
white wizard

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Same here, maker. The First pic is awesome, but the battle is UGH

#5
white wizard

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I get it the Witch King is strong but he's not on the level of a maiar.

#6
RangerGal1

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Hmmm. Gandalf did not fair terribly well on Weathertop. When confronted by several Nazgúl, he was only just able to hold his own. It took the combined resources of Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, and Glorfindel to scare them.
It also took a tremendous effort (in the past) to frighten the Witch King into living somewhere far away from the Northern Lands, which was where he had taken up residence in Ages past. Glorfindel had been there (uhmm...yes, he was that old) and had a spell of his own:

quote:


The Witch-king rode out to meet his enemies clad in black robes and a black mask and mounted on a black horse. There was a great battle on the plain between the North Downs and Lake Evendim. The forces of Angmar were defeated and the Witch-king tried to retreat to Carn Dum but he was pursued by Earnur and his cavalry. The Witch-king was filled with hatred for Earnur and rode to confront him. Earnur tried to stand his ground but his horse fled in terror and the Witch-king laughed. Then Glorfindel approached and the Witch-king vanished into the shadows. Glorfindel counselled Earnur not to pursue him, saying:

"Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."
Appendix A: "Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion," p. 332

Forgive me for quoting using someone else's website, but I found it to have lots of fun facts on the Witch-King. Check it out at:
http://www.tuckborou.../witchking.html

So back to the fight:
Gandalf was lucky not to have had to cross swords with him. He already knew that it would take a spell to defeat him. He did not know the spell, but instead relied upon fate (and the will of Illuvitar?) to set things right.
And so, the Barrow-blade (from the barrow near the place where the Witch King had taken up residence in...damn, what was the name of that Kingdom - Arthedain? Ah, I found a quote on that: "Fornost Erain: Fortress capital of Arthedain, sited in the [i]North Downs[/] (The Downs? Recognise it?)with a commanding view over the northern Baranduin valley and the Nenuial." Read up on it on the page that I gave you above.) was used to destroy his magic, while the "no hand of man" was supplied by Eowyn.

I believe that Witch King vs. Gandalf would result in a draw. *Shrug* Sorry...but Gandalf didn't know his secret. (Or did heeeeeeeeee?????)
*Cue evil person laughter*

#7
white wizard

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Oh ye also gandalf the white defeated 3 nazgul on fell beasts in the retreat of soldiers from osgiliath, and i think 1 of them was the witch king. The light he spread chased them all away, and they didn't return after it ended. Why didn't he use THAT spell? BAD move from PJ. But pretty good point RG.

#8
Mandard

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I've commented on this scene before, but I agree it was very disappointing.

First, Gandalf should have put up a fight! I totally understand that they can't have him win this battle, but he should have done something. It's ridiculous that he just sits there and gets smacked around like a chump. If Eowyn and Merry can stand up to him, then certainly Gandalf could hold his ground for a bit.

Second, there was no need to break Gandalf's staff. It makes no sense and is completely unnecessary. The breaking of the staff is symbolic of a loss of station and authority. This has even been shown to us earlier with Saruman. How could the Witch-King have that power? And why would the filmmakers want him to? Very strange choice.

#9
Lord Kargan

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Further to what Rangergal1 said, I thought Gandalf only fought four or five Nazgul at Weathertop, and it was a fight.

Also, I'm not sure exactly where, but I think it says somewhere in the LOTR that the Nazgul become more powerful as the ring grows nearer to Mount Doom.

The Nazgul are merely men, but vastly augmented by Sauron himself. The Witch King is basically his right hand man, a "spear of terror" in Sauron's hand. And Gandalf also says somewhere in ROTK that Sauron is more powerful than he.

With all of that said, the Balrog and Saruman were also maia, and Gandalf could defeat them. Unless it can be established somehow that the Witch King had most or all of Sauron's power at his disposal, I don't see how he could have beat Gandalf.

#10
white wizard

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it doesn't make sense. I mean Fine, maybe not win, but at least like have him do the "Bolt Of The Valar" to not make him look like a sissy, but instead they just made him FLOP around.....

#11
KiLleR_wOLVerIne

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I think it is bad because how could a wizard be defeated by a black rider how?

#12
KiLleR_wOLVerIne

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if Eowyn can kill the Witch King how cant Gandalf?

#13
RangerGal1

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Eowyn had help. Merry had a sacred blade - one that had been specifically made to destroy the "outer shell" of The Witch King...in essance, it turned off his supernatural force-field.
After that, Eowyn, the "No Man", was able to cut him so deeply that the total spell was broken, and he was destroyed.

Think of it as a combo-spell that he never thought anyone would figure out - sort of like Achille's Heel.

#14
white wizard

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Ok but my overall point is that they should have made gandalf fight and draw, cause he's more powerful (my gameboy game and i tested it lol)

#15
Duke

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I have quite different gripes with this scene (and others), since I felt it was totally unnecessary to portray Gandalf as a fierce fighter or "combat mage". That isn´t his primary role.

At the end of the Third Age the whole point of Gandalf´s acts is to help Men to take their place as the new sovereigns. His role is to guide them along, prepare them, instruct them and - when necessary - protect them. This was underplayed in the movies to make more room for more fighting even from Gandalf´s side.

Then again, mr Jackson decided to turn my favourite book character into an unwashed killing machine, so there´s a certain logic to it.

#16
Witch-King of Angmar

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The Witch King is MORE powerful then gandalf. Even if gandalf is a Maia he is still a human man. As the book states Sauron put a spell on the Witch King that states NO MAN CAN KILL HIM now on the part that gandalf could have killed him with a spell is untrue becuase the Witch King was given a wizard teaching by sauron when he became a nazgul not only that but he practiced the wizard magic for more then 18,000 years and gandalf was born for more then 8000 years. And gandalf only had more then 7000 but less then 8000 to practice wizardry along with saruman who had MORE years of practice then that of gandalf. Now comes the Maia thing. Gandalf was a Maia but was still sent to complete his task from the gods and was given the grace of the spirits. Never in the book or movies or even GAMES does it state gandalf was given the strength boost of the maia's so what gandalf gained was support from the gods and a little stronger gandalf known as Gandalf the white. The god's relized that what they did to Sauron was a big mistake as saroun reached the powers of the gods as his army grew stronger. But how did he get to a level hire then what he was? When he forged the ring that while on his finger he was as powerful as the gods and nothing could hurt him or help him. The hand of the rings was cut and he lost it, BUT he became a spirit who lived in the spirit world this you know but while the ring was forgotten he grew with his army this you shoutl also know as saruon was once the most powerful wizard of them all given strength, wisdom, power (wizard) and craftsmenship of knowing how to create goddish ring was the big mistake that the gods made. Ultimatly providing Saruon the resourced needed to make the one ring. He betraded middle earth and created his own army capable of killing all of middle earth and then the story of how they fought in mount doom and isildur came to place. What saruon did not send out at that time was the 9 nazguls? Why? The nazguls where still training wizards but one in particular became the nazgul king who had much more years to practise magic. He was sent out to battle but before he could make it on time he saw that saruon was defeated knowing this the witch king went to wait for the spirit of sauron to once again come out he knew this and when sauron did pop out he cursed the witch king so he could not be killed by man and could not be killed by regular arms for his late attendence when they battled. Knowing this the nazgul went to practise more and more knowing this. My question is how could gandalf the white possibly kill the witch king the book states that the nazgul (witch king) was going to be killed by gandalf but the problem is anyways it would have not worked as only sauron could (not knowing that women could kill him)kill or free him of his spell as he created the nazgul and taught him. Easily gandalf would have been destroyed by him in a magic fight. Though Eowyn would have also if merry had not found the nazguls witch blade (dagger) that had saruons poisen mix in there. The witch king was stabbed and was hurt for moments and was stabbed by Eowyn. It's stated that though the witch king was killed in the regular form he was sent to saruon immendiatly as a spirit and then saruon gave him another chance. The witch king was sent to minas morgul where he was remade but not in enough time to fully recreate him Saruon died by the ring being poured into Mt.Doom. But though if he did have enough time he would have been sent even more powerful and would have not only killed Eowyn and merry but would have killed all of the good heros with his magic. BTW the ghoust could not even kill him. NO MAN CAN KILL HIM. Even though gandalf was a Maia he was still man. He was raised in gondor as so was Saruman as they joined the wizard school became wizards and later on the 2 Greatest wizards next to the witch king and the most powerful wizard ever to be made Sauron.

#17
Lord Kargan

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^ Citations please.

#18
Organic_Spudwalker

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Nice filling of the gaps with fan fiction

#19
CheshireCat

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oh i was most upset with this scene

it was utterly rediculous how they made gandalf out to be utterly helpless

also, i didn't like when he came out of gondor to save the survivors- all they did was make the top of his staff a very small flashlight :/

#20
CheshireCat

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CheshireCat:
oh i was most upset with this scene

it was utterly rediculous how they made gandalf out to be utterly helpless

also, i didn't like when he came out of gondor to save the survivors- all they did was make the top of his staff a very small flashlight :/

wow two "utterly"s- oh dear lol

well you understand my dissapointment with it at least :P

#21
Witch-King of Angmar

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dude what fan fiction? That all came from the ROFT EE extended features where they talk all about it
also watch the movie with the people talking about it.

#22
Witch-King of Angmar

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AND AlsO THE BOOK.

#23
Organic_Spudwalker

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quote:


Even though gandalf was a Maia he was still man. He was raised in gondor as so was Saruman as they joined the wizard school became wizards and later on the 2 Greatest wizards next to the witch king and the most powerful wizard ever to be made Sauron.

Wizard school??? Well, whoever said that on any extended dvd feature is not even a reader the books never mind an authority on Tolkien.

#24
Darth Spoon

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As someone that has read the books, the appendices, the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tale and gone over every inch of the DVDs, my only reaction is...

WTF??? laugh

#25
white wizard

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Hey WK not beat him but don't u think it's stupid to make a powerful being like gandalf helpless and not fighting back in any way, juast lying down? Come on.....



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