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Season V NFF Issues/Discussion Topics


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#1
Rock

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Just so I don't have to through 40 pages of threads to make sure we don't forget anything, I figure it's prudent to have a sepaerate thread for the sh*t we b*tch about durign the season. It's not like we can't spare the hard drive space.

1.) Pre-Draft Keeper Welfare Picks
Should we limit pre-draft picks if people choose NOT to keep all 4 players? Should we only allow teams with bad records? Limit it to 1 pick? Elminate it completely? Keep it as is?

2.) Free Agency Acquisitions
AKA "The Brandon Jackson Proposition"
Should there be a waiting period before we can take a FA? What other ways can we ensure everyone gets an equal shot at FA's? FA budget? 2 day waivers? Pick names out of a hat to see who gets him? Round robin?

3.) Positive Points & Negeative Scoring for Defenses and Kickers
Is there a way to make them more important in the game? Should we eliminate negative scoring for D/ST and Kickers? Should we cap their shame at 0 instead of going into the negative?

Edited by Rock, 18 September 2010 - 05:22 PM.


#2
Lucas1138

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Maybe something regarding the scoring of kickers and defenses to make them a bigger part of the game?

#3
Rock

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oh yeah.

#4
UK Legend Killa

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Pssssh! Kickers and defenses should remain as they are.

Just move the FA 'unlocking' to a convienient time for all.

Non-keeper 'welfare picks' should only be available for those that finish bottom of their conference.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOM! Ryan sorts the world out again.

(And is slightly drunk)

#5
ShadowDog

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I've always liked the waiver system used by most fantasy leagues. If you have a bad record, you get first shot. If you take that first shot, then you go to the bottom of the list and have to work your way back up again. It's a fair system.

#6
Darth Lohr

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Which is basically how the NBF is set up, I believe. There's a one day wait and then it goes by waiver order. That seems to work well.

Not that I haven't made my feelings clear, but for the sake of the new thread: I hate, hate, HATE negative points for kickers and D/ST!!!!!! In real football, defense and special teams are 2/3 of the game! The kicker may get no respect, but good ones are coveted and can decide the game in more ways than one. Their fantasy impact is traditionally limited as it is, but this system not only fails to mirror reality (which I think our game should do when feasible), it just doesn't make sense. If a kicker misses a field goal in real life, the other team gets the ball on downs. His fantasy owner, however, loses points. If the team instead decides to go for it on fourth and runs for no gain, they still lose the ball on downs - and the relative fantasy owner probably doesn't even know it happened, unless he's actually watching that game.

If the positions weren't so limited already, if there were sound, logical reasons behind it, it would be easier to handle these point deductions. However, that's just not the case. Making things even worse, kicker production on a weekly basis is very difficult to predict. You simply have to draft one based on what you think his overall performance will be - and if he has an off week or plays in horrible weather, you could end up losing points. An off week at any other position will generally simply not help as much. Defenses are in a similar boat in many ways. Rosters are set up where you can play the matchups at other positions or go 3-wide one week, etc. - but a team just can't afford to keep 2-3 kickers and 2-3 D/ST (not that that sounds like a good alternative).

These two positions are never going to be as important as the others, but considering they represent 25% of a team's starting lineup, shouldn't they at least be a little helpful? :confused:

#7
Super Dragon

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I'd like to start off by saying that I have no issue with the way our system is already set up. However, there was something I was wondering regarding the free agency issue. I remember reading a thread a couple weeks ago that was speaking of a fantasy football setup that had some form of auctioning. Is that something that we could do for our Free agency acquisitions? Say, each owner has a set amount of points that they can bid for a player, but another owner can come in and bid more. Honestly, I would enjoy that as I imagine that it would add a bit more realism.

#8
groove terminator

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in a league i run which rock is also in, i have free agent bidding which is in its first season of being used (one guy blew his entire budget of $200 for the season on brandon jackson, which means he can't make another pick up at all for the rest of the year) so it is interesting to see it in practice.

the way i have it set up is that the winning bids are announced on wednesday, thursday, friday, saturday at 9pm EST

if their are two teams tied on the same amount for a bid then there is a weekly order which is inverse of the current standings

that might be something to look at i guess, i just don't understand why it has taken 5 years for it to be come a problem but meh thats just my view which prob doesn't mean much

#9
Darth Irish

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The free agent acquisition budget is a good system. For free agents, and so is the waiver system if people don't want the first come, first serve.

#10
ShadowDog

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I hate to agree with DL on anything fantasy football related, but I have to admit his logic on kickers is sound and well written and I agree with it 100%.

#11
Darth Lohr

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Dex, you make me happy and sad all at the same time... :hmm:

#12
ShadowDog

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LMFAO. Well, the problem I have with your fantasy football logic is it's not consistent. Sometimes you want the league to be as close to real life NFL as possible without regard to any other factors ... and sometimes that's not even a consideration. But we can duke that out in the offseason, I'm too busy right now. :flirt:

#13
Darth Irish

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Put two team expansion on that list too. I know it's not popular, but I will keep bringing it up since we have two members who want in on this madness.

#14
UK Legend Killa

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I still don't see the fuss about Kickers and D/ST.

Kickers get 1pt for every PAT, and between 3-5 points for every field goal. They can lose 2 points for every missed FG and 1pt for every missed FG from over 40 yards. The only real way that you get negative points is if BOTH the offense and the kicker have a pretty bad day. I'd say it is quite rare. Sure low scoring matches occur but thats part of the game. My entire active team scored 1 TD between them last week and so I had about 2 players in double points. **** happens.

As for D/ST there are loads of ways for them to score points. They only lose points if they let in 22+ points; get 1pt for each sack; 2 for an INT, safety or recovered fumble and the usual 6 for any kind of TD.

The overall negative effect of kickers and D/ST is quite minimal and, when it occurs, deserved. Missed FG effectively costs a team some points in real NFL, so why shouldn't it cost us points in fantasy NFL (especially as we don't care if the team wins or loses.) There should be some repurcussions for them not doing their job.

#15
Darth Lohr

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while i am getting beat by a defence
yes 24 friggin points from a defence

who said they were worthless?

Nobody, as far as I know. I'd love to see the deductions removed so that they can be a true positive factor more often, though. :shrug:

#16
Darth Irish

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We don't reward defenses who surrender 40 points, the horrible performance is reflected by the negative points. They accumulatempositive points through doing well (I.e. Sacks, recoveries, and special teams plays).

Same with kickers. If they miss a 50 yarder that's an extremely tough kick. However, if they moss an 18 yard extra point, it warrants negative points since even I can make that kick.

#17
groove terminator

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maybe make the poitive aspect of those two position worth even more while keeping those negative aspects as well??

#18
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That's my thing, Brad. These positions already have such a limited impact (a 24 point day is very rare). Penalties against other positions aren't felt as much, because they score more. Plus, it's really not the same all the way around. A RB or a WR is generally only going to be penalized for a lost fumble - a pretty infrequent occurrence. They could still have a crappy day in plenty of ways - 2.0 yards a carry, dropped passes. None of that will hurt them in fantasy, though. On the other hand, take my Ravens D/ST today. They had a pretty good day in real life: didn't give up a TD, only surrendered 15 points total, only allowed 3.5 yards a rush and 4.5 yards a pass. Yet, what did they do for my fantasy team? A whopping 2 points. T-w-o.

The average points allowed per team last season in the NFL was 21.5. We start deducting points at 22. There was a game I had one year that would've been a tie, except my kicker missed a 49 yard FG and lost a point. How is this at all comparable to the other positions? I just don't understand why some people are so opposed to making these two positions a little more relevant. Even if we take away the deductions, they're going to still be far behind most other positions in terms of impact. Yet, as I said in the other thread, they constitute a 1/4 of your lineup. If we go through the bother of having them on our team, why not let them have a little more importance?

Edited by Darth Lohr, 19 September 2010 - 07:13 PM.


#19
Darth Lohr

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UKLK, it's not just when it results in a negative total that bothers me. It's the whole deduction thing, because it further hamstrings two positions that are already fairly limited on average. As I've said, even without taking points away from them, their fantasy impact is nowhere near their real life importance. And the penalties enforced aren't comparable to other (already higher scoring) positions. A QB could complete less than half of his passes, a WR could drop 4 balls, a RB could fumble 3 times - and provided someone with the same color jersey falls on the ball, in every case it will represent a horrible day in real life and yet have no fantasy "repercussions".

A missed FG does not lose points for a team and again, is basically the same as going for it on 4th and not getting it - which happens often and has no bearing on fantasy football. Missing a 49 yards FG is not shocking - after all, it's hardly a gimme - yet it costs fantasy teams. Allowing 22 points hardly seems like such a crime when you consider that the average team in the NFL last year allowed half a point less every week. So, no. I would not agree that the deductions are deserved, consistent, or necessary.



(And Dex, speaking of inconsistent, I'm not sure where I've been inconsistent. I've always said - usually verbatim - that I think fantasy sports should reflect their real life counterpart "as much as feasible". Sometimes, it's just not practical. Often, though, options are available to at least get things closer. I don't really recall ever proposing anything that was too radical simply for the sake of mirroring the NFL). :shrug:

Edited by Darth Lohr, 19 September 2010 - 07:16 PM.


#20
Rock

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tl;dr

#21
Darth Lohr

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Reading can be difficult.

#22
Rock

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You shouldn't have to write out an essay (or several, in your case) to state your point. If the point is good enough, it'll sell itself. More words doesn't mean better words.
  • groove terminator +1 this

#23
Darth Lohr

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It was two little paragraphs. Takes maybe thirty seconds to read. The only reason there were two is because one was moved from another thread.

#24
UK Legend Killa

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That's my thing, Brad. These positions already have such a limited impact (a 24 point day is very rare). Penalties against other positions aren't felt as much, because they score more. Plus, it's really not the same all the way around. A RB or a WR is generally only going to be penalized for a lost fumble - a pretty infrequent occurrence. They could still have a crappy day in plenty of ways - 2.0 yards a carry, dropped passes. None of that will hurt them in fantasy, though. On the other hand, take my Ravens D/ST today. They had a pretty good day in real life: didn't give up a TD, only surrendered 15 points total, only allowed 3.5 yards a rush and 4.5 yards a pass. Yet, what did they do for my fantasy team? A whopping 2 points. T-w-o.

The average points allowed per team last season in the NFL was 21.5. We start deducting points at 22.



With regards to your D/ST this week, whilst the Ravens may have not given up a TD, had great yardage averages they still only got 1 sack, 0 turnovers and allowed 5 drives to end in FG. And they lost (Although I appreciate this is mainly due to Flacco being ****). Turnovers, sacks, safeties etc are all the most important part of a fantasy team's D/ST. There are plenty of ways they could have scored points, but they didn't. I do think that this maybe pushes forwards a case for maybe changing the limits for points scored and deductions, but still not completely removed.

Whilst a bad game doesn't cost any of the other positions points it still hampers their ability to score. When you rely on these players to make a larger contribution to your score this can hurt you even more than a kicker being docked a few points.

There was a game I had one year that would've been a tie, except my kicker missed a 49 yard FG and lost a point. How is this at all comparable to the other positions? I just don't understand why some people are so opposed to making these two positions a little more relevant. Even if we take away the deductions, they're going to still be far behind most other positions in terms of impact. Yet, as I said in the other thread, they constitute a 1/4 of your lineup. If we go through the bother of having them on our team, why not let them have a little more importance?

I think that having deductions makes them even more relevant!

Your kicker missed a 49 yard FG and lost you the game. If he is trying a 49 yard FG then the game was probably lost for his real team too! It's little things like that that make it even better and much more realistic. I don't see why this realism makes this less practical. The conditions are the same for everyone and I think most people will have had a game where a D/ST or kicker has lost them the game.


UKLK, it's not just when it results in a negative total that bothers me. It's the whole deduction thing, because it further hamstrings two positions that are already fairly limited on average. As I've said, even without taking points away from them, their fantasy impact is nowhere near their real life importance. And the penalties enforced aren't comparable to other (already higher scoring) positions. A QB could complete less than half of his passes, a WR could drop 4 balls, a RB could fumble 3 times - and provided someone with the same color jersey falls on the ball, in every case it will represent a horrible day in real life and yet have no fantasy "repercussions".

A missed FG does not lose points for a team and again, is basically the same as going for it on 4th and not getting it - which happens often and has no bearing on fantasy football. Missing a 49 yards FG is not shocking - after all, it's hardly a gimme - yet it costs fantasy teams. Allowing 22 points hardly seems like such a crime when you consider that the average team in the NFL last year allowed half a point less every week. So, no. I would not agree that the deductions are deserved, consistent, or necessary.

A fumble that your team recovers costs you no points because it has cost you very little in the grand scheme of things. A missed FG has lost you the chance of getting more points. Within the same scoring system you have to be consistent. Whilst many incompletions, a dropped pass or a fumble may not cost a QB/RB/WR/TE any points it does limit their ability to score. If they hadn't have made that mistake then the drive may have continued and they could have gained more points.

A kicker has very little opportunity to make an impact, so their scoring ability is lower than the other positions. At the same time they are heavily relied on to convert their opportunities as it is such a specialised and specific position. They convert then they get the points, they miss and they are deducted points because they were expected to not miss. In the same way a RB is expected not to fumble, a QB is expected not to be intercepted. Obviously this changes due to the distance, and so do the points deductions.

(I'm quite enjoying this debate BTW)

#25
Darth Lohr

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Yeah, but we're just going to go in circles from here. We simply have different opinions of what is "realistic". Any play in real life - dropped pass, overthrown ball, no gain on 4th down, etc. - could just as well "cost" a team a game as a missed FG. It's all about the particular situation. That missed 49-yarder could have just as easily been on the opening drive of a win and been a non-factor in real life.

As for the Ravens yesterday, yes they "allowed" 5 FG - largely because of the field position that the Baltimore offense gave the Bengals. Those scoring "drives" included ones of 38, 28, 21, and 3 yards. They only allowed 253 yards total for the game. So, yes - they did play well.