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The Dark Knight Rises -- (Spoilers, people)
Posted 22 July 2008 - 01:33 PM
After thinking on it some more, I like the idea that Batman will be considered the "villain" in the public's eye in the next movie. Meanwhile the true villain, the Riddler, could be seen as a sort of new hero to Gotham, helping the police to hunt and unmask the Batman. Gordon, knowing the truth behind Harvey and Batman, sees through the Riddler and works with Batman in secret to expose him
I could buy that. Currently in the comics Riddler has reformed, and has become a media darling detective fore hire. I could see a set-up where he comes on the scene to "solve the riddle of the batman" while secretly robbing the city blind. Batman could care less though because he's busy tracking down either the arms dealing Penguin, or socialite thief Selina, (but only because she stole from Bruce Wayne).
I do think Talia could have been involved. Rachel has always been MEH to me, and I felt like a lot of what Dent did in DK, and wheat Rachel did in Begins COULD have just been Dent In Begins-- and had Talia as the love interest since Ras was on the scene already.
But i digress...
Posted 22 July 2008 - 02:42 PM
I do like the scenario that Riddler is the "hero" and Batman is the "villain". I could def see that working and Riddler basically heading up the Bat hunt, and in all likelihood, this will be the case no matter the villain. That just seems like the perfect set up, and what was intended.
Edited by Skaxx, 22 July 2008 - 02:48 PM.
Posted 22 July 2008 - 04:02 PM
Meanwhile the Joker is in Arkam along with some other crazy people. While in prison he meets up with these crazies and begins planning an escape. Eventually he pulls off the escape and some of his closer friends in Arkam spill onto the streets along with him, these become The Riddler and Catwoman (and possibly some other villian, I;m not an expert on Batmans rogues gallery).
So now the cops are chasing Batman and dealing with the crimes being committed by Riddler and Catwoman. They also realize that the Joker is free, but he has not done anything since being loose. He is biding his time while everyone else is distracted coming up with his largest plan yet.
The situation gets so bad that Gordon eventually has to release evidence stating that Harvey Dent committed the crimes for which Batman is wanted, despite Batman not wanting him to do this. Gordon is then arrested for tampering with evidence. But now Batman is free to help defeat the crazies from the asylum.
Batman is able to round up the Riddler and Catwoman but just as he does this the Joker reveals his grand plan, which ofcourse Batman now has to stop. Batman and the cops have to work together more than ever to do this and Gordon is released due to Batmans insistence to help.
Posted 22 July 2008 - 06:06 PM
Yeah it would have been fun if they could have worked in a scene where the Scarecrow tried to use his gas on the Joker and the joker did something horrible to scarecrow and basically says "I don't need no gas to put the fear of god into you now do I HAAAAAA" or something like that.
There was actually a scenario very similar to what you just posted in the Knightfall saga in the comics, where Scarecrow and the Joker team up and kidnap the mayor of Gotham City. Scarecrow turns on the Joker and uses his fear gas to see what Joker is afraid of. To Scarecrow's surprise, the gas has no effect on Joker, who, in turn, beats Scarecrow with a chair. This suggests that, due to his insanity, the Joker literally has no fear, or at least has no hidden demons.
It would've been nice to see a scene like that in THE DARK KNIGHT.
I think I mentioned that in my review for TDK. I would like to have seen Scarecrow more in the last movie.
My picks for BB3 would have to be Catwoman. I am a bit resistant because she was so perfectly done in BR and poorly in Catwoman. It may get saturated with her. But if she emerges as a dark hero like Punisher and this bring back Batman to tame her it could work.
I would aslo like Bane done right. Maybe have Batman's back broken and have the recovery there. This would be a definant physicial villan that would match him as opposed to just a just having to be tatic.
A third idea is to bring back the League of the Shadows with Ras' daughter. (Would have to be the first aka Asian one since Decard/Ras' daughter is dead.)
Riddler would be great if done right. He was my favorite Batman villan as a kid but Carry ruined him for me. THis would be a psycological villan for sure. Maybe you would not even see the Riddler until the end and just get clues.
I would like to see lesser know villans like Black Mask or the Madhatter but avoid Killer Crok or Manbat. To comicy.
Posted 22 July 2008 - 10:04 PM
I feel so left out of this conversation. No one bothered with my post.
Jesus Christ people, why do we need to see a reboot for every character Shumacher screwed up?
Think about it this way...
If the publicity about TDK was the late Heath Ledger playing the role of The Mad Hater, do you think the turnout for this movie would have been as great as it has been. Probably not. Instead he was playing a well known villian and putting a new spin on it. Same can be done with someone like The Riddler. He is a close number 2 to the Joker and really needs to be reinvented since the last version of him was Jim Carrey pretending to be a campier version of Frank Gorshin.
Darth Malfory I agree with your statement about Catwoman in BR except for one thing, the fact that she was crazy. They did a great job of dealing with her duality but I think it would be more powerful if she wasn't crazy. Also watching that movie they spend way too much time on Penguin and Christopher Walken and not enough on the Batman/Catwoman dynamic.
Posted 23 July 2008 - 02:30 AM
A third idea is to bring back the League of the Shadows with Ras' daughter. (Would have to be the first aka Asian one since Decard/Ras' daughter is dead.
Actually he only mentions in BB that it was his wife that died. I don't think he mentions a daughter, which no doubt was purposely done by Nolan and Goyer to open the door for Talia.
Posted 23 July 2008 - 09:18 AM
Some casting suggestions for the Riddler...
Doug Jones. I believe he has real acting chops and is underused. He could totally pull off the cold, quiet side of the Riddler. Plus, people are always talking about David Hyde Pierce as the Riddler, and if you ask me, he out-David-Hyde-Pierced David Hyde Pierce's performance as Abe Sapien in Hellboy II.
oh god, tell me more about this guy. i haven't seen Hellboy II, but appearance-wise this guy just SCREAMS Riddler to me.
Which was awesome
the last version of him was Jim Carrey pretending to be a campier version of Frank Gorshin
totally awesome, but completely inappropriate for the tone of Nolan's Batman movies.
Posted 23 July 2008 - 12:12 PM
I think I saw an interview with Bale where he said if Robin was a part of the films he would not be in them anymore. Maybe this was in jest but timeline wise I would think it would be odd for a young millionaire playboy to adopt a ward. Him needing help is why I find the Catwoman idea intriguing. Here is someone Bruce/Batman can relate to and even care about but can never fully trust because she lives by her own moral code.
I keep noticing that Jim Gordon's son knows about Batman and his Father's relationship. I'm not sure Nolan will get to take these films that far ahead in the timeline, but perhaps instead of a Robin type character, a younger character would eventually take over the mantle of the Batman? Who better than Jim Gordon's son?
Also I know this doesn't jive with the comics but Gotham needs a new DA. How about the Riddler as the DA? Who else better to talk in Riddles than a politician/lawyer? And with Batman now a criminal who better to be his rival than a new false hero DA out to get him for less than nobel reasons?
Posted 23 July 2008 - 01:40 PM
As for my pick for the Riddler, Jude Law. It seems in line with their casting choices so far too. Apart from Liam the villains have all been cast from the same type of age and talent pool as Bale.
For a replacement Joker... Paul Bettany. He doesn't look like Ledger, but the overall length and shape of his face is close. I also believe he could pull off enough similarity, homage to Ledger, and yet still be able to push it forward into his own role.
Posted 23 July 2008 - 04:03 PM
The Penguin: He would seem like the main villain, but he'd really be just a set-up for the main villain. I like the idea of him being a mob boss/illegal arms dealer, using the Iceberg Lounge as a front for his operations. With Gotham's organized crime now following 'freaks' to take down the Batman, the 'freaks' need someone who can supply them with 'those wonderful toys' and costumes they use to rival Gotham's Dark Knight. With Ra's al-Ghul dead(?), Scarecrow needs a new source for his fear toxin. True, the League of Shadows still exists, maybe with a new Ra's, or Talia, in charge, but they could still use Penguin as a go-between.
I would initially think Bob Hoskins was too old, but too old for what? Fight scenes? Short and stocky as he is, the Penguin is no match for Batman. He'd just have his henchmen do his dirty work. The Penguin would also rely on the element of surprise, unveiling his hidden blade/gun in his umbrella, for deadly effect.
Actually, I kinda had James Gandolfini in mind. He has a kinda nasally, Penguin-like voice, the physical look. Though he might balk at playing yet another mob boss using a nightclub for a front. (Tony Soprano=Penguin, Bada-Bing=Iceberg Lounge.) Still he's my choice and I'm sticking to him.
The Penguin would be the perfect lead-in for Hush. Start out with flashbacks and backstory involving Bruce's relationship with Dr. Thomas Elliot, then introduce the Penguin, a crime spree commences that can't entirely be blamed on Penguin (although he did supply the weapons), and then Hush is revealed to be the villain. This fits the pattern I described earlier.
The Riddler: Would need some tweaking to fit into Nolan's universe but I think he could work. Nolan/Ledger did a brilliant job incorporating Joker's signature look into the film, changing some things to make it more real and credible, yet remaining true to the Joker's essence. I think Nolan could do the same with the Riddler. He just would not be the Riddler without the signature riddles and question-mark suit.
Here's my idea: The movie starts out with scenes of Gotham's most popular quiz-show (Riddle Me This??) in which contestants have to guess the solutions to questions posed in the form of riddles. The host wears the question-mark suit and domino-mask and calls himself The Enigma. No other name or identity, its just a gimmick for the show. Edward Nashton, the future Riddler, whose criminal profile fits someone who craves attention and has an obsessive-compulsive disorder, becomes jealous of Enigma's fame, and becomes obsessed with the idea that if he can puzzle out Engma's true identity, and then kill him, he can somehow win the attention and respect of Batman. (Shades of Mark David Chapman and John Hinckley, Jr?) He also starts dressing like him, changes his name to Edward Nygma, calls himself The Riddler, and commits crimes involving riddles. For inspiration the film-makers could look to The Zodiac Killer, the aforementioned Chapman and Hinckley, as well as movie villains like John Doe in Se7en, Jigsaw in Saw. The modern Riddler could also be a computer genius, an expert in codes and encryptions. Maybe he commits/reveals some of his crimes over the Internet a la Owen Reilly in Untraceable?
If a villain wearing a question-mark suit still seems hokey, I like the idea of not revealing the Riddler until almost the very end. There are many different suspense-thriller-crime dramas to reference for this. Most of the film would involve Batman facing another adversary (The Penguin?) and trying to solve the Riddler's puzzles and identify him, and then when he finally figures it out, we see the Riddler dressed like the quiz-show host, wearing the question-mark suit, and if the host is still alive, Riddler has him tied up, waiting for Batman to arrive. (The Dead Pool?)
Edited by King_Elessar, 23 July 2008 - 04:09 PM.
Posted 23 July 2008 - 04:38 PM
Posted 23 July 2008 - 04:44 PM
As for a side villain\antihero, probably Catwoman would be a good choice. Maybe Catwoman could even end up helping Batman clear his name?
However, I think there needs to be an evil villain, too, though. Riddler could work, if he is portrayed as a serial killer\mass murderer who leaves clues~not some mad scientist like Batman Forever.
I would also like to see a movie based on Batman:The Cult, with Deacon Blackfire as a David Koresh\Jim Jones-type, who is brainwashing followers sort of like DR. X in Queesnsryche's Operation:Mindcrime. Batman is trying to figure out who is going to kill some VIP, and finds out the "Manchurian Candidate" is actually Bruce Wayne, because it turns out that Batman was captured, brainwashed, and turned loose. That could work, if done sort of like Fight Club.
Posted 23 July 2008 - 04:55 PM
If that's the case, then why would he want to be "redeemed"?
Posted 23 July 2008 - 05:56 PM
As for his villian status, Gordon knows he is innocent which is hugely important. Gordon can feed Batman info about how the police are pursuing him which will aid in him escaping.
I think it would be cool for the Joker to wage some kind of personal war against batman/bruce wayne. He could find out Batmans identity by kidnapping the guy from Wayne Enterprises. Then he could just try to destroy his life. No more moral dilemmas or traps, just flat out target Bruce Wayne. Go after Alfred, blow up Wayne Tower.
Posted 23 July 2008 - 08:33 PM
With Hush you've got personal connections to the Wayne family and a character behind the Hush persona, Dr. Thomas Elliot, who hates Bruce. If you want to borrow from the comics, this may be the best way to introduce Riddler...as Edward Nigma, one of Elliot's patients. Maybe through a more Nolan'esque route, we get Riddler as a result of Dr. Elliot manipulating Nigma to do his bidding by becoming The Riddler. Perhaps while Riddler attacks Batman through means of crime, Elliot somehow attacks Wayne and now you've got a two-prong attack taking place where not only is Gotham after Batman, but now he has to worry about his reputation as Bruce Wayne as well.
Whatever the case, I say Hush is a good option.
Secondly you've got Reaper, and I think there's great potential there. Somebody mentioned the connection to Rachel, and that could be a great tool. Reapers secret identity, Judson Caspian, could be connected to Rachel somehow. If he weren't compelled to become Reaper due to his wife being slain by a thief as were the case in the comics, perhaps Rachels death could be the motivation. He doesn't have to be her father (since his daughter's name was Rachel), anyway...long story short, he becomes Reaper so he can have vengeance for Rachel's death.
Here's where it could be interesting. Unlike Batman, Reaper gruesomely kills the crime lords and mob bosses whose lives were spared by Batman. Reaper doesn't live by Batman's one rule (as stated in TDK), he lives by vengeance. He avenges Rachel by killing those who she sought to put behind bars and rid Gotham City of and, in time, plans to avenge her by killing who he holds responsible for the circumstances that led to her death - Batman. Joker's anarchy and lack of rules made him a great villain to face Batman, and Reaper would be as well for being the dark counterpart to what Batman seeks out to do by seeking after a similar end by the opposite means.
Anyone remember Rachel telling Bruce in Begins the difference between justice and vengeance, how justice is harmony and vengeance is making yourself feel better? How interesting indeed for Batman, finally in tune with the idea that justice = harmony, now pitted against somebody fighting to avenge her to make himself feel better? It's an interesting idea, and we'd then come come full circle - Batman redeems himself to Gotham and proves once and for all that justice is about more than one man's revenge.