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The Dark Knight Rises -- (Spoilers, people)


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#1
Master Pimp

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I started this thread because the other thread really felt more like a movie review thread. If the powers that be wish to close this one so be it. I just thought it would be good to have a thread for pure speculation without the spoiler tags. Also feel free to post links to articles about rumors or news here.

My thoughts (thanks to too much free time on my hands)...

There's been some talk that Nolan won't come back for a third. If that happens Bale probably doesn't come back. I imagine this is just business to make sure WB backs the Brinks truck up to everyone's house. To me there has to be a third film because of the story being told...

BB- Rise of Batman
TDK- The fall of the dark knight
B3- Redemption of Batman

You could leave it where it lies and it would be ok, but the end makes you feel like there is more story to tell. Yeah it will be hard to top this movie. They essentially made ESB or Godfather 2 with this franchise. I feel like these filmmakers are capable of making a ROTJ instead of a Godfather III. To do so you're going to need some recognizable villain(s) who are capable of putting Gotham (and Batman) in severe peril so the Batman can be redeemed. Here is a couple of ideas...

The Riddler: First off, forget the over the top Frank Gorshin 60s Batman or the horrible Gorshin inspired Carey Riddler from Batman Forever. This Riddler needs to be the real deal. Lose the jump suit and the corny laugh and make him the intellectual equal of Batman. Make him a brilliant engineer and detective who comes up with elaborate schemes and build elaborate death traps in search of the answer to the greatest riddle in Gotham: Who is Batman? His hyper-OCD nature is what fuels his criminal passion. Possibly base some of his crimes on the Zodiac killer. It is going to be hard to make him not just a Joker replica, but reinventing the Riddler character is something Nolan would do and could make him just a strong of a supervillian.

Casting: Don't get a comedian. If they could actually get Daniel Day Lewis to play him it could be great. Get someone who can do dark and brainy but intimidating.

Catwoman: This was my initial choice but after thinking about it I'm not sure she's the best choice as a main villain. I'd love to see her as part of this franchise because they could make her into something special. The cool thing about Selina Kyle/Catwoman is she shares in the duality that Bruce Wayne/Batman lives in. Make her like a Thomas Crown character: a bored socialite who begins to steal from her rich friends and lives by her own moral code. Because of this she would see right through the facade of Bruce Wayne. Making her a shade of gray, one minute a foe the next minute a friend, fits perfectly in this world Nolan has created. It also gives Bruce Wayne a new female to interact with and one he doesn't have to continually save.

Casting: I read where Kate Beckinsale was interested. I think she could play both roles effectively much like Bale does.

Black Mask: I got looking into lesser known Batman villains and this one stuck out. Leaving behind the bizarre aspects of his origin, make him a failed business man who resorts to a life of crime and ascends to the head of Gotham's underworld. With the top bosses eliminated by the Joker and the Joker himself incarcerated there would be a power vacuum in the mob. With a "freak" in charge the mob becomes even more violent looking to reclaim what was theirs before Batman came along. Another important aspect of this is Black Mask's hatred for Bruce Wayne, which will indirectly put him against Batman. Penguin could easily fit this role too but I think trying to portray him in a realistic way is too difficult.

Casting: ???

Putting too many villains in a movie can be dangerous (see Spiderman 3, X-Men 3) but if they are all unified in one common goal (finding out who batman is and destroying him) and the story being told has a logical progression then it could work. And remember while he's fighting to save Gotham he's going to have Commissioner Gordon trying to catch him as well.

Just my take.

Edited by Rock, 23 November 2011 - 09:38 PM.


#2
Darth Dude

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Penguin could easily fit this role too but I think trying to portray him in a realistic way is too difficult.


People keep saying this but he's probably the most easily translatable of them all. The waddling prince of fowl play would be perfect as a Falcone/Maroni mob boss. Forget the huge nose and top hat. Forget the retarded Burton mutant. Just have him be a short, fat, bald guy who wears a tux and smoke cubans, with his underlings referring to him (behind his back) as resembling a 'penguin'. Must use an umbrella shotgun at least once tho.

I'd bring him in as a Europeon arms dealer, like he was originally remoured to be in The Dark Knight. He has some vendetta against the Falcone family and takes them over by violent force. Since a Gotham Mayor angle has been started in Dark Knight, Oswald Cobblepot becoming the new corrupt mayor is also an interesting storyline, but already used and ruined by Burton. Damn you Burton!

Bob Hoskins was born to play Penguin.

Posted Image


I like your ideas about Riddler trying to puzzle out Batmans identity and Catwoman stealing from the rich. Not really interested in Black Mask or Hush just yet. I'd rather see awesome versions of Bob Kanes original characters, something to erase the ****ed up versions from the previous movies. It will be EXTREMELY hard to top or even equal Jokers villainry, and I just don't think those newer characters can do it. Only the combined efforts of Riddler, Penguin AND Catwoman can pull off a statisfying closure to this trilogy!!! .... At least for me. :P

#3
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If they could actually get Daniel Day Lewis to play him it could be great.


They won't. Because he was already approached for Ras Al Ghul and turned it down. Infact, most roles he has turned down. He even turned down Aragorn for the LotR trilogy. I just don't see it happening unless Scorsese directs the third film.

#4
Hammurabi-Sith

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You can introduce the Penguin very easily in the third film. Have the Penguin frame Batman for the murder of the mayor and then have the Penguin who has control of the crime families run for mayor. Make the Penguin out to be like a Godfather type character who acts legitimate to the public, but is really behind this whole mess. At the same time you can introduce the Riddler sort of by having the Riddler sending riddles as to who is in control of the crime families of Gotham. Eventually the Riddler and Penguin agree to combine forces to get rid of Batman.

Penguin can have almost two personalities. A politician kissing babies with a great charm to him and then a ruthless criminal underneath it. Basically think of the most corrupt politician and also add in the fact he's a cold blooded killer, who in many ways is looking to destroy Gotham like the Joker was with anarchy. Hell maybe even the Penguin could release the Joker back out into the wild.

#5
Mercury

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I love the idea of having Catwoman in the next one. It would give Bruce a romantic equal, rather than the damsel in distress that Rachel was. And they shouldn't make her a basket case like BATMAN RETURNS did, either. Instead, have her be less of a villain and more of an anti-hero with a heart of gold, as she is portrayed in the comics today. Sort of a Robin Hood, steal from the rich/give to the poor type character. Still at odds with Batman, yet a strong romantic interest. As for the Riddler, I agree that they should shy as much away from the Frank Gorshin/Jim Carrey portrayal as they possibly can. Just make him a super-smart criminal with a major case of OCD in that he has to leave riddles after committing a crime. As for the Penguin, he should definitely be the next mob boss in Gotham with just the derogatory nickname of "Penguin." No circus freak. Another villain I say they should consider bringing in, as I mentioned in the other thread, is Talia Al Ghul, carrying on her father's "crusade." Perhaps they could even have Ra's return himself as a surprise. I'm not saying this next movie should have ALL of these villains mentioned, but they should all be considered.

#6
Jason Solo

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I saw some discussion over a possible title in the TDK thread. I suggest Shadow Of The Bat. Twas the title of an old Batman monthly DC used to publish and I always liked it.

#7
The Human Torch

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BB3 shouldn't happen for sometime and when it does it should be a solo Batman adventure, no other heroes etc.

However the next "Batman" story needs to be told in a Superman Returns sequel. Any sequel they have planned for that should be scrapped and immediately refocused into a continuation of Batman's outcast, murdering tagged status. The Dark Knight totally set up, intentionally or otherwise, for Superman to come to Gotham. Batman versus Superman, Bale and Routh, needs to be scheduled right now. By film's end Superman and Batman will be the world's finest team, but right now the table is set perfectly for them to meet. Who better to swoop in after Gotham's Golden Boy goes down than the Big Blue Boy Scout? Batman versus Superman... with Lex Luthor and Joker returning. They basically made this movie as a Timm animated feature already, but it's time to pump out this baby for live action.

#8
Hammurabi-Sith

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I like that idea Mercury of the name Penguin being a slang term for the person who is actually the Penguin. In fact you could create a whole mental stability issue with it. How? Nothing sets the Penguin off more in a violent rage than when he's called a Penguin or a bird. It's what sets him off, because come on who the hell actually wants to be called a Penguin and be taken seriously in a crime organization.

I'm not big on Catwoman personally because I never cared for the character in the old show, the Burton film and I didn't even bother to watch Halle Berry's movie. It would be a good plot point but she would have to be with another villian.

#9
Jason Solo

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Ugh. I'm totally against any Superman/Batman movie. If people want a Superman/Batman story, pick up the comic, or Trinity. As a bonus with the latter you get a little Wonder Woman too. But for films? I've hated the idea since day one. Leave Superman as a separate project (preferrably one without Singer that completely reboots the film franchise, but that's for another thread).

#10
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I'm not big on Catwoman personally because I never cared for the character in the old show, the Burton film and I didn't even bother to watch Halle Berry's movie. It would be a good plot point but she would have to be with another villian.


Those versions of Catwoman are exactly what they should try to avoid if she is to be in a Nolan Batman movie. I'll reiterate...make her less of a villain and more of an anti-hero romantic interest for Bruce Wayne/Batman. The way Catwoman is being portrayed in the Batman comics today is exactly how I want her to be in the movie. More of a vigilante (sometimes thief) with a good heart and a sense of justice, but who is at odds with Batman, and, at the same time, both have a strong mutual attraction for the other. And definitely don't make her crazy, like Michelle Pfeiffer's version...or goofy, like Halle Berry's version. Basically, make her like Bruce Wayne's version of a Bond Girl. A semi-ally of Batman's. Make the real villain the Penguin, or the Riddler, or Talia Al Ghul, or...whoever.

Edited by Mercury, 22 July 2008 - 01:18 AM.


#11
Wally Q

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As far as villains are concerned for film three, I think I’m just going to sit this one out and wait to see what the Nolan Bros. have to say on the matter of the sequel and see if there is a definitive answer to the fate of one of the characters in TDK...

Spoiler! --Click here to view--
Harvey Dent.
I would really like to see the crux of Batman: Year Two be modified to live action since elements have already proven successful with “Mask of the Phantasm,” ultimately one of the greatest Batman films ever. I still don’t believe that Bruce’s childhood sweetheart was named Rachel without a purpose in mind.

I’m a fan of “Shadow of the Bat” myself. “The Caped Crusader” sounds kind of hokey.

#12
Kitster aka Boba Fett

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Master Pimp, you pretty much hit the nail on what I might wanna see in a third Batman film. I think the Riddler is the next logical step, the only villain who could potentially put Gotham in greater distress than the Joker did, but at the same time it will certainly be hard to distance him from the Joker. In TDK the Joker already does some almost Riddler-like things like set up all the death traps (which is kinda funny, seeing how everyone else has always made the Riddler too much like the Joker, not vice versa). I think Nolan could do it though.

I say the Riddler as the main villain, Catwoman as the anti-hero love interest, and Penguin and Black Mask as minor mob bosses (their roles about as big as Falcone or Scarecrow in BB). Black Mask would be a nice fresh face for the movies since he hasn't been used in virtually any on screen versions of Batman but he's still a fairly major villain in the comics, so it's not completely unfounded. Plus I've always thought he'd be one of the easiest villains to translate into Nolan's universe.

I also wonder if they could somehow make the Joker's presence, or at least his influence, felt in the third film. I wouldn't want them to show him or anything, he can stay unseen behind bars, but maybe criminals look to him as an example or something. I dunno.

Who else is there?

Mr. Freeze: Too unrealistic, and even if they made him realistic I don't see his emotional arc being entirely relevant to Nolan's story. Maybe he could be a henchman with freezing technology or something.
Poison Ivy: Too silly in concept. Although there's room for environmentalist satire ;)
Bane: One of the few villains to pose a physical (as well as psychological) threat to Batman. The Knightfall story might be an appropriate next logical step, by having Batman be physically broken after he is almost psychologically broken in TDK. I personally don't care for Bane though, and would rather they stick to the psychological stuff that works so damn well.
Talia: Eh, it might make sense but I'd rather leave Ra's and his legacy in the past. Let's move on.
Harley Quinn: Love the character, but I don't like the idea of having her without the Joker, and let's face it, recasting would be criminal.
Ventriloquist/Scarface: He could maybe work as a minor gangster, but he's still pretty ridiculous in concept.
Mad Hatter: I like the creepy pedophile angle introduced in Arkham Asylum, but I think his part would amount to something like Mr. Zsasz in Begins
Clayface: Too unrealistic
Man-Bat: Way too unrealistic
Killer Croc: Could work as a henchman with a skin disease

Edited by Kitster aka Boba Fett, 22 July 2008 - 02:45 AM.


#13
Hammurabi-Sith

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Mercury I don't keep up with the comics anymore. What drove the new version of Catwoman to do what she does?

Also do you think Nolan and some of the movie executives might be a bit scared of doing the Catwoman since many people still have Halle Berry fresh in their minds from a few years ago?

#14
Mercury

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It's a long story, so I'll just refer you to here: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Selina_Kyle

As for the Halle Berry movie affecting Nolan's decision, you could be right. But that character wasn't even Selina Kyle, which, unfortunately, I'm sure the casual viewer doesn't even realize. But what better way to redeem the character of Catwoman than portray her correctly in a Chris Nolan Batman movie? :)

You know what? I wouldn't mind having Scarecrow back to play a bigger part in the third one. If I have one quibble with THE DARK KNIGHT, it's that Cillian Murphy was criminally underused. He was one of the best things about BATMAN BEGINS, in my opinion. He's a great actor.

#15
Hammurabi-Sith

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Yeah it would have been fun if they could have worked in a scene where the Scarecrow tried to use his gas on the Joker and the joker did something horrible to scarecrow and basically says "I don't need no gas to put the fear of god into you now do I HAAAAAA" or something like that.

#16
Mercury

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Yeah it would have been fun if they could have worked in a scene where the Scarecrow tried to use his gas on the Joker and the joker did something horrible to scarecrow and basically says "I don't need no gas to put the fear of god into you now do I HAAAAAA" or something like that.


There was actually a scenario very similar to what you just posted in the Knightfall saga in the comics, where Scarecrow and the Joker team up and kidnap the mayor of Gotham City. Scarecrow turns on the Joker and uses his fear gas to see what Joker is afraid of. To Scarecrow's surprise, the gas has no effect on Joker, who, in turn, beats Scarecrow with a chair. This suggests that, due to his insanity, the Joker literally has no fear, or at least has no hidden demons.

It would've been nice to see a scene like that in THE DARK KNIGHT.

#17
Kitster aka Boba Fett

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Yeah it would have been fun if they could have worked in a scene where the Scarecrow tried to use his gas on the Joker and the joker did something horrible to scarecrow and basically says "I don't need no gas to put the fear of god into you now do I HAAAAAA" or something like that.


There was actually a scenario very similar to what you just posted in the Knightfall saga in the comics, where Scarecrow and the Joker team up and kidnap the mayor of Gotham City. Scarecrow turns on the Joker and uses his fear gas to see what Joker is afraid of. To Scarecrow's surprise, the gas has no effect on Joker, who, in turn, beats Scarecrow with a chair. This suggests that, due to his insanity, the Joker literally has no fear, or at least has no hidden demons.

It would've been nice to see a scene like that in THE DARK KNIGHT.


Agreed. I would have also liked to see someone under the influence of the gas while looking at the Joker. That would be some scary sh*t...

Also, wasn't there a rumor that the Scarecrow's gas would be modified into the Joker's laughing gas or did I make that up?

#18
Darth Spoon

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Great thread MP. Just what we needed :thumbsup:

I like some of the ideas being thrown around for the Riddler. I like the idea of his focus being finding out who Batman is, and I also feel this would link quite well with Bats being on the run now, as Gotham would welcome this.

I also think it'd be a good opportunity to introduce Hush to the fold, which I think could work for a few reasons. He's close to Bruce (the absence of Rachel means that no-one except Alfred really knows Bruce that well), has no real 'powers' and thus would work well for Nolan's world, has a history with the Riddler, and could thus be the one to spill the beans on Bats' identity. Not to mention the links between the two and Ra's Al Ghul. Plus I always thought he looked really really cool.

#19
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I really want some clue/easter egg/hint towards Dick Grayson, something like a poster of the Flying Graysons, Bruce recieving tickets to one of the circus shows, or even just a mention that the circus is coming to town. You could even have the Flying Graysons make a cameo without Dick, just have his parents and we can be left to assume they'll have a child down the line. I hate the idea of completely ignoring such a huge character in the Batman mythos, and I'm biased as I want a Nightwing (my favourite comic-book character) movie somewhere down the line!

#20
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Given the circumstances that this "superhero genre" is heading, we are leaning away from having two-dimensional villains and focuspoints on nothing more than toy-marketing looks, into a more realistic value to these films. The villains that are attracting the bigger crowds and better ratings are the ones that are more psychologically developed with flaws the audience can relate to, yet with obvious psychological flaws to keep us guessing so that we arent too familiar with them.

With all do respect, lets put away our nerd tendencies and forget what we know about the batman series because these movies are marketed more to an audience who isnt familiar with the series, but to keep enough of the basic concepts of the comic to bring in the geeks like us. And though people may not know the comic, they are familiar with it to some extent.

With these guidelines, the realistic and obvious choice would be to bring in the Riddler. With the bad taste of the Batman Return's Catwoman and that absolutely dreadful Berry Catwoman, I think we could probably rule her out, but we may be on the right track. Batman has alienated himself from Gotham turning himself into the villain, its only a matter of time when this becomes too much for one man to handle, thus enter another name that most people would recognize with Batman...Robin. With how these two movies have turned out, I put my trust into the writers and Nolan to incorporate Robin well into this story, and no Batman series is ever complete without him. The Penguin mob scenario would work, but it would have to be small like Falcone and Maroni, Penguin alone isnt marketable unless hes a freak like the Burton creation. Same with Catwoman. Riddler, realisticly, is the only Batman villian (imo) that still has the capability and market value to make a third (and probably final) Batman movie. Almost such that im expecting Riddler to be in the next one.

EDIT: Im sure theres a handful of villains Nolan could work into this story, but now that hes used the Joker, and at how well he used it, the next villain has to have an equal appeal and already big name. The older crowd and lesser familiars with the story would more than likely know Riddler as much as Joker, and it would be interesting to see a newer interpretation of the Riddler, maybe more of an absolute destruction mentality or a way to take control of Gotham's citizen's minds and make an army of his own. Who knows =P

Edited by Skaxx, 22 July 2008 - 03:46 AM.


#21
Master Pimp

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see below

#22
Master Pimp

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I think I saw an interview with Bale where he said if Robin was a part of the films he would not be in them anymore. Maybe this was in jest but timeline wise I would think it would be odd for a young millionaire playboy to adopt a ward. Him needing help is why I find the Catwoman idea intriguing. Here is someone Bruce/Batman can relate to and even care about but can never fully trust because she lives by her own moral code.

I also somewhere the idea that Riddler works for the city trying to find Batman although I think I like the idea of Riddler being an all out villian from the start just like Joker was in TDK.

Bane I think would only work after Batman has gained some acceptance. If someone took him out in the next movie like Bane did in Knightfall the city would be ok with it. If they ever made a Batman 5 that might work.

Here's an interesting article...

http://moviesblog.mt...e-for-batman-3/

#23
Kitster aka Boba Fett

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Some casting suggestions for the Riddler...

Posted Image
Daniel Day-Lewis. Though as someone mentioned, he probably wouldn't be interested, but this is the kind of quality actor Nolan would probably go for.

Posted Image
Michael Emerson. If you've seen him on Lost, you know he can play the perfect cold, calculated evil genius that the Riddler will need to be. However, the role might be too close to Benjamin Linus on Lost and the casting wouldn't seem as inspired.

Posted Image
Doug Jones. I believe he has real acting chops and is underused. He could totally pull off the cold, quiet side of the Riddler. Plus, people are always talking about David Hyde Pierce as the Riddler, and if you ask me, he out-David-Hyde-Pierced David Hyde Pierce's performance as Abe Sapien in Hellboy II.

Posted Image
Nick Stahl. Definitely has the skills, and definitely seems like the kind of young face that Nolan might pick. I think he could totally hold his own with the rest of the cast.

Posted Image
Ben Foster. Another young actor type that Nolan might go for. He's already squared off against Christian Bale in 3:10 to Yuma and did a fine job.

I'll think about Catwoman and Penguin.

Thoughts?

Edited by Kitster aka Boba Fett, 22 July 2008 - 12:38 PM.


#24
Kitster aka Boba Fett

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After thinking on it some more, I like the idea that Batman will be considered the "villain" in the public's eye in the next movie. Meanwhile the true villain, the Riddler, could be seen as a sort of new hero to Gotham, helping the police to hunt and unmask the Batman. Gordon, knowing the truth behind Harvey and Batman, sees through the Riddler and works with Batman in secret to expose him.

Catwoman could be there to help. I think giving Bats an extra hand would be the next logical step in Nolan's films. With the escalation of "freaks" comes the need for recruitment, and if they aren't doing Robin, Catwoman is the best possibility. She's also the kind of anti-hero that Gotham believes Batman to be, so she can relate to him. New love interest? Check.

#25
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I'd like to see them be more daring and do a movie WITHOUT a love interest for Bruce. That's the only thing really missing from Nolan's vision, IMO. Especially after all the events in TDK, Batman/Bruce should be a loner for a while.