Jump to content

Welcome to Nightly.Net
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Final Fantasy XIII


  • Please log in to reply
497 replies to this topic

#476
FFfreak

FFfreak

    A Returnee

  • Members
  • 601 posts
agreed, agreed and agreed. U hit the nail on the head there ixion.

#477
JonTucker

JonTucker

    Halo -4- Life

  • Members
  • 9,216 posts
Maybe I have a disjointed view of things, but I thought XII was superior in every aspect to this game. Basch was as close as anyone's come to a Cecil or Auron in a long time. It was almost like they were trying to replicate Balthier with Snow, but instead made him with a "gangsta" look, and quoting literature doesn't exactly work with that, I guess... So, instead of Balthier's understated "leading man" we get Snow's fist-pumping "I'm the muthafrackin' hero, bitches!" bombast.

There was this epicness with XII that XII failed to capture. You had 3 nations, humongous cities, amazing detail in the architecture of everything... It was a beautiful game. I just feel like I'm in a 3 lane tunnel for the entirety of the game in XIII. Plus, I think that I'm one of the very few people that actually loved the Gambit system. If you died, it was because you failed in your setup, not because you hadn't wasted one switch already and in order to get past that ridiculous initial Paradigm Shift animation.

For the record here's my view of what Final Fantasy is:
An open-world globe-spanning (sometimes more than 1) quest involving complex characters.
AIRSHIPS! Boats / Submarines (the "more than 1" counts underwater stuff)! That Big Whale spacecraft thing in IV.
At some point, you can revisit old areas utilizing the above. There's a logical connection / transition between errors.
Jobs
An active battle systemHas a crystal element
Has chocobos
Has a Cid.
Has twists involving either characters' identity - Golbez, Sin, Auron, and so on - or actions - Aerith, Kain, etc. or plot.
Biggs/Wedge

My personal rank of FF titles
IV
X
IX
VI
XII
VII
VIII - the only one I didn't complete. Got to disc 3 and just said, meh.
I
II
III
V - c'mon, the villain's name was DeathX or something...
XIII
X-2 - the fact that you had to get 100% completion to see the ending that brought real joy bothered me... So I didn't bother.

#478
JonTucker

JonTucker

    Halo -4- Life

  • Members
  • 9,216 posts
Oh, and here's the best way I can convey my point of disbelief at the whole Hope / Snow subplot:

1. Let's say I'm a teen like Hope.
2. I have a parent who is in the military.
3. Said parent dies doing their duty.
4. I want to kill my parent's commanding officer now.

WHAT. THE. ****?!

That's the logic flow of this plotline. Plus, Hope actually saw what happened. He saw the PSICOM thing blow the **** out of the bridge, saw Snow trying to save his mom. She dies, he couldn't pull her back up, so that's somehow Snow's fault?

I thought the anger was all about Snow being unable to save his mom. How that transforms immediately (go review the chapter list recaps in your datalog) to burning hatred fueling a killing desire... That's a reach made even harder by bad storytelling.

I mean, c'mon guys. Surely you see the reach here. It is the Internet, though. Everyone completely understands everything on the Internet... Even NumberSeven.



#479
FFfreak

FFfreak

    A Returnee

  • Members
  • 601 posts
I think it was because hopes mum wasnt in the military. Snow just came up and was like " Hey civilians, who's gona man up and fight?" and hopes mum was like "ME! cos im a mummy and have been thru labour so i can deal with ****". But hope was a ***** and didnt understand that, and blames snow for convincing his mum to go out and die....

Does that make sense?

#480
JonTucker

JonTucker

    Halo -4- Life

  • Members
  • 9,216 posts
No, because they were being slaughtered. They were being Purged. Not sent away, PSICOM was going to line them up and put a bullet in their heads. Then probably turn them into Soilent Green. Light decided to **** **** up, so PSICOM brought in the heavy guns. The NORA people jumped in and said "we have some extra guns from these guard guys we were able to take out with our badass trenchcoats and Gadot's muscles and the weird J-Pop kids' haircuts... who wants to fight back?" Hope's mom did the thing you said above (quite eloquently, I might add), because, hell, they were gonna get slaughtered anyway. Hope hijacked the skybike thing and chased them. He saw the big 'splosion behind Nora (and don't even get me started on that little coincidence), saw Snow trying to pull her back up...

Then Vanille was all like "you should talk to him" over and over... Then, the datalog is all like "Hope burns with the fires of hell silently planning his vengeance on Snow for killing his momma." Sorry, that's a s t r e t c h.

Now, if he saw Snow going all Jack Bauer on her fingers, or saw her hanging there and Snow did nothing to help, then you have a point. She took the gun, probably because she had a unique wardrobe and fully modeled hair. That's always a bad sign in RPGs, btw. If you see a character that looks like they weren't designed by the intern learning Maya, then you know they're about to become a part of the story...

Now, here's a scenario that supports the "I got it right away" crowd:

Hope doesn't follow on the skycycle Obi-Wan chased down Grievous in. Snow makes it back, alone. He's all like "those weak-ass bitches weren't as strong as your hero!" *fistpump* *highfive* "They were no fit for NORA!" Everything else played out the same way regarding Hope's mom's death.

or

Hope does follow with Vanille riding sidecar. Obligatory creepy-Japanese shot of Vanille's backside as she's getting in, btw. Think of the underage kitten girl in that last Star Ocean game, if that helps. Anyway, so Hope gets there, that pseudo-airship shows up and opens fire. Snow grabs humanora and uses her as a bullet sponge, then flings her over the precipice. *fistpump*

or

same as above, the ship gets there, floats up behind redshirt (I mean, Nora), and instead of screaming "Holy F***! There's a giant thing with tentacle arms and rocket guns behind you, run!" Snow dives out of the line of fire just as the rockets are launched.


Basically, all this to say "Yes, what you say makes sense, but none of the events as shown support the conclusion that Hope drew." They just wanted to find a way for some internal conflict among the PT. The whole Dajh l'Cie v. Fang/Vanille l'Cie with Sazh's internal conflict about that would've been much more believable for this, but instead it was just glossed over in a couple of random cutscenes on Pulse (other than the Nautilus chapter where Vanille finally came clean), that many people may not have seen as they were triggered based on entering Mark Mission areas that were way down the list and far from the ! marker that was constantly telling you GO HERE, DUMBASS. (one was the Chocobo mission, which was about 2 dozen down the line)

#481
Otanku

Otanku

    Hook 'em!

  • Members
  • 14,204 posts
JT, I get what you're saying, but I think you are over complicating what Hope should have felt vs what he did feel. And no he didn't see Snow try to pull her up, his vantage point saw her slip from his grasp, so he felt Snow failed her.

I'm with Six, it was very believable the whole Inigo Montoya attitude. I suppose Vanille saying "go talk to him" was somewhat of a confusing point, but him being an immature teen who from the get go you could tell he wasn't happy that his mom was handed a gun by some overzealous wanna be hero. So, I don't agree it wasn't clear, the setup was all there.

As to the game critique, I do consider it a "genuine" FF title, it's just different. The paradigm shifting was a new way to approach battle. I know we think nostalgically about turn based, but honestly, I think the fact the HD technology allows for so much realism I couldn't deal with a turn based approach. Make the battle mechanics fun and give you more options to command, sure, but no I don't want turn based restored at this point.

I did complain about the fact they had pre-rendered backgrounds and a very "tunnel vision" view of the world in the Cocoon chapters, at least through the first 7 for sure. That's inexcusable in this generation, considering they had taken a step back from having open field mobs and battle interactions happening immediately upon encounter (both in XII and obviously in the XI MMO, which was done w/ PS2 compatibility in mind). Even though we could see mobs, why did it transition to a "random encounter" screen? Just leave me in the world let me kill the mob and move on! Not to mention once we get to Gran Pulse and see just how immensely detailed and open spaced world they can truly construct in this environment makes it more of a crime they had such claustrophobic maps in the first 2/3rds of the game.

I also didn't like the ineffective party chatting happening during exploration. Dragon Age Origins does a masterful job of the idle party chatter that makes you stop and listen to it, not to mention you can pick up what they say even when the talking starts off sounding in the distance. In this game, though, 80% of the time, I'd catch like the last word of whatever someone in my party was babbling about, and then I'd stop to try to "hear" it, but it was too late. If they would have taken more time in scripting dialogue for the random party chatter, it would have added another dimension of being able to get into the characters.

Lack of a true evil baddie. Squenix just hasn't been able to live up to the Kefka/Sephiroth 1-2 punch they delivered in succession with VI and VII. Baddies have become more ambiguous, starting with VIII, but it seems they truly enjoyed the bait-switch they did in IX and decided that having some detached omnipresent baddie is a requisite. Make a singular baddie hell bent on burnination and lets get it on!!

Game appearance and eye popping character details masks the flaws this game brings, and maybe they partly banked on us being in eyeball lust they lost sight of providing more of the "little things" that make FF a top class RPG. I enjoyed it and had a fun time playing it, but it definitely left me wanting at the same time, and dammit they need to ensure satisfaction with their flagship franchise!

#482
FFfreak

FFfreak

    A Returnee

  • Members
  • 601 posts
I thought Seymore was a good baddie?

#483
JonTucker

JonTucker

    Halo -4- Life

  • Members
  • 9,216 posts
Seymour was awesome.

The best RPG of this generation, imo, has been Lost Odyssee. I guess I just expected way too much out of Square after seeing what FF's daddy was able to do. That game was more traditional FF than XIII. Is XIII a bad game? Absolutely not. I just didn't care for it.

#484
Otanku

Otanku

    Hook 'em!

  • Members
  • 14,204 posts
I never said Seymour wasn't a good baddie, but Final Fantasy X is one of the worst culprits of not keeping with one baddie. Seymour was a guy you loved to hate for for sure, but the ominous boss was actually Sin itself. That was the driver behind the story. Then of course, we come to find out there's this ridiculous floating bubble dude controlling the dream world and respawn of Sin. WTF?? :confused:

VI and VII had NO ambiguity. Sephiroth was THE baddie. Ditto Kefka.

#485
Ixion

Ixion

    DareDevil Defence Force

  • Members
  • 6,548 posts
Yeah I like that about VI and VII, you have no doubts once Kefka and Sephiroth show up they are the villains of the piece, everything builds up to a final showdown with those two instead of just plucking some random god-like boss out of thin-air you have no investment in.

I do like the recurring minor villains like Seymour though, and Seifer, the Turks, Jenova, Beatrix, Ultros, Gilgamesh etc. Shame XIII didn't have anyone like that, I thought that Jihl, the woman in the glasses, was going to be that sort of character.

#486
TuskenRaider

TuskenRaider

    decommissioned

  • Member
  • 32,568 posts
Jihl would have been a good one for that, and I really thought I'd be seeing more of Cid also. After that first battle with him, I thought to myself ' okay, here is the Seymour battles of XIII, I'll be seeing him again.' and then it never came. lol Though the ending of his story was awesome and I didn't think that Square would go there.

#487
NumberSix

NumberSix

    Content Provider Emeritus

  • Member
  • 29,754 posts

I also didn't like the ineffective party chatting happening during exploration. Dragon Age Origins does a masterful job of the idle party chatter that makes you stop and listen to it, not to mention you can pick up what they say even when the talking starts off sounding in the distance. In this game, though, 80% of the time, I'd catch like the last word of whatever someone in my party was babbling about, and then I'd stop to try to "hear" it, but it was too late. If they would have taken more time in scripting dialogue for the random party chatter, it would have added another dimension of being able to get into the characters.


My hearing kinda sucks, and we try not to turn my son's TV up loudly enough to drown out whatever my wife is watching in the living room, so we have subtitles turned on, which catch all those li'l bon mots for us, even when they're totally inaudible. They're inessential but sometimes cute, especially when Hope is trying to convince himself he's a tough guy.

#488
Macstorm

Macstorm

    Whipped

  • Members
  • 17,338 posts
Been spending a lot of time in Pulse and agree that this is the best part of the game. But still the empty world just adds to be further complaint that the game lacks depth. It's 95% combat and 5% story. There is just so much that could have been done here and it just feels like a huge missed opportunity. I'm not going to debate the whole "Hope is a sociopath" topic here, because honestly, it doesn't matter. Who really cares enough about Hope or Snow for this to matter?

#489
NumberSix

NumberSix

    Content Provider Emeritus

  • Member
  • 29,754 posts

The problem is those flashbacks all but stop. Had they kept up, that would have been great as they were the best part of the story. From chapter 9 on, things just seem to be missing.


We finally finished Chapter 13 last week (took about 60 hours in all, which included several hours of my son spending his free time just grinding in Archylte Steppe for more CP, but we're still working on the hunts), and now I see where you're coming from. Once the characters united as one big sextet, it's like all the individual plot lines came to a dead stop. Excluding the epilogue -- which we found pretty satisfying nonetheless -- the rest of it began to feel like a gussied-up version of the original FF.

Still really very pretty, but not quite as engaging now as it was earlier on. Rats.

#490
TuskenRaider

TuskenRaider

    decommissioned

  • Member
  • 32,568 posts
Yeah, I like to have a lot of story sprinkled in throughout the whole thing. I think perhaps early on we were spoiled because there were so many cutscenes. Either way, by that point I had gotten a good grasp on the battle system and was having a lot of fun just messing with that.

#491
NumberSix

NumberSix

    Content Provider Emeritus

  • Member
  • 29,754 posts
We mostly love the battle system and have gone nuts trying out different combinations. Really, we've had to experiment with our paradigms to slog through the later marks. We just completed the Titan Trials last night, which included spending over half a frickin' hour on Attacus, stuck alternating between MED-SEN-MED and RAV-SEN-MED and failing at gaining any ground with any other paradigms, even with our Crystariums nearly maxed out and our weapons all one Trapezahedron shy of their next form. Probably should've kept some Fortisols in stock before going in, come to think of it.

I'd change only a few things in the battle system:

* Let us switch party leaders mid-battle a la FFXII. Countless others have pointed this out as a fatal flaw, but I'm adding my vote anyway. We were cool with it early on when Lightning was more unstoppable and wasn't up against foes doing 10-15K damage per attack. Now, not so much. It'd also be a tremendous boon in situations where we need one of the other party members to cast a specific spell that Auto-Battle is steadfastly refusing to use just to tick us off.

* Don't automatically delete all paradigms every time we switch out a party member. Resetting all six paradigms every time we want to try someone different is tedious.

* Maybe have the monsters give us Gil as a treasure? At least sometimes? Because we could really use lots of it right now?

With only six hunts left -- and the last one no doubt impossible -- we're hoping to come to a stopping point this week, then move on to FFVII next. (Long story.)

#492
tryptifaeris

tryptifaeris

    Deculture!

  • Members
  • 50 posts
Last weekend I hit a brick wall with Mark #41 Gian Grudge, so I went and finished chapter 13. And now I'm back on Gran Pulse I just now have started upgrading my weapons. Any suggestions on what to do now? I feel kinda without direction...
Should I just start farming CP to max out the final level of the crystarium? Or begin redoing marks that I didn't recieve 5 stars in?

#493
TuskenRaider

TuskenRaider

    decommissioned

  • Member
  • 32,568 posts
When i finished the main story, the first thing I did was fill out my crystarium, and then I did all of the marks one by one. And then I was finished. haha.

#494
tryptifaeris

tryptifaeris

    Deculture!

  • Members
  • 50 posts

When i finished the main story, the first thing I did was fill out my crystarium, and then I did all of the marks one by one. And then I was finished. haha.

Did you try and get the treasure hunter trophy? Have every weapon and accesory in your inventory at any time during the game.
That seems like an enourmous time sink! Plus FFXIII really doesn't throw gill at you, when you start persueing the advanced trophies it's like you're in an economics / alchemy class >.<

#495
TuskenRaider

TuskenRaider

    decommissioned

  • Member
  • 32,568 posts
No, I didn't bother to get that one. I dont think you have to have them all at once though. You just have to have held them at one time.

As for the gil problem, I agree. Though if you farm adamantoise for their possible rare trapohezdron drop, as well as their high CP totals, they also drop platnium ingots much more often, and those sell for like 40,000 or 50,000 each.

#496
tryptifaeris

tryptifaeris

    Deculture!

  • Members
  • 50 posts

No, I didn't bother to get that one. I dont think you have to have them all at once though. You just have to have held them at one time.

As for the gil problem, I agree. Though if you farm adamantoise for their possible rare trapohezdron drop, as well as their high CP totals, they also drop platnium ingots much more often, and those sell for like 40,000 or 50,000 each.

Thanks!

#497
NumberSix

NumberSix

    Content Provider Emeritus

  • Member
  • 29,754 posts

That seems like an enourmous time sink! Plus FFXIII really doesn't throw gill at you, when you start persueing the advanced trophies it's like you're in an economics / alchemy class >.<


Despite numerous tries, we never could get a handle on adamantoises, so the lack of any other viable gil sources pretty much ended the game for us. The chocobo treasure hunts paid off some, but eventually dried up. We wound up upgrading one Genji Glove all the way, dismantling it, and using the resulting trapezahedron to upgrade Fang's weapon, so that was cool to get at least one of those.

We only left two hunts unfinished, IIRC. Maxing out the Crystarium for the characters' primary roles is an absolute must before tackling the later hunts -- especially the Titan Trials -- and it wasn't nearly as hard as farming for gil. By the time we stopped, our party was maxed out on five of their six roles. If we wanted to keep grinding, we could've eventually finished out the sixth. (If.)

#498
TuskenRaider

TuskenRaider

    decommissioned

  • Member
  • 32,568 posts
The trick to the Adamantoise, at least for me, was to choose Fang as your PT leader, and have her in a sabateur role. (It's helpful if she has an Auto-Haste ability too) As soon as the battle starts, summon Bahamut. Then go crazy with the spells. Get Deprotect, Poison, Imperil, Slow. And let Bahamut attack. Typically, Bahamut will send the Adamantoise into stagger with his last attack before he vanishes. (Don't send him to gestalt, just let the time run out). Then, with your full party back, get his stagger gauge up to 999% as quick as you can, and then attack like crazy. He SHOULD fall before he can get out of Stagger. If not, you should be able to quickly get him staggered one more time before he wipes you out. Then he's toast.

It took me a couple tries to get the hang of it, but once you do it's a sure-fire victory.