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Static Party Constructive Criticism (welcome Slayerrr)


500 replies to this topic

#26
Xerlic

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I'd just like to throw my .02 in if nobody minds.

WAR/MNK becomes less and less desirable a tank as the levels increase for several reasons.

Number 1, they become an MP sponge. Unlike a PLD, they have no means of curing themselves so mages within the party must cure them. Plus, a WAR/MNK will have overall less defense than a PLD/WAR at the same level. As your level increases, the amount of total hp and the amount of damage you take per round will increase which means more time spent curing which = harder to hold hate.

Number 2, they're not as versatile as WAR/NIN even without Utsusemi: Ni. WAR/NIN will build up TP faster because of Dual Wield II, gain Utsusemi: Ichi, and all the other debuff Ninjitsu in the mid-50s. There's a lot of things you can do with WAR/NIN, imo. You can main tank without burning so much MP on cures. You say that you only get to use the shadows for a few attacks, but as a Mithra, any attacks you can dodge will help. You're taking almost as much damage as if Dagg, Cons, Dub, or I decided to play a tank role. =P The thing is, you'd probably need a THF to play a main tank role like this. You can also play a backup tank who can take hate if things get hairy for a main tank. You can grab a NIN/WAR or even a WAR/NIN and pingpong the hate back and forth while the other recasts the Shadows. I actually did this when levelling NIN and it works really well. =P

WAR/MNK is more suited for a damage dealer role at level 50-ish. It's fine to tank at lower levels, imo but it gets harder and harder as the levels progress.

#27
Stress

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updated tanking equipment... i'd sit at about 400 def w/ Pro III... unfortunately that kills my dmg output...

comments appreciated, but this is not a ninja thread... i'm not arguing for or against the sub, like i said : ain't gonna happen

team is filled out w/ no back up tank... god help me

#28
Stress

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and Stress and Jesus both wept cry

#29
Roedran

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IMO to help with hate, one rdm always keep stress hasted, the other keep angelina/oxe hasted. Split up curing between reso and sive as even as possible like using cure III's traded back and forth, even if you overlap heals it is only a Cure III not to much lost MP. Split up enfeebs like Sive take xx and reso take xx. Keep the beasty you are fighting Gravitated.

Never haste Wix (Sorry Wix you do a lot of damage fast enough already) Also Wix only use his abilities if he needs em. I.e. Boost and focus before WS, Dodge if he pulls aggro, etc. If you can get Stress to end the SC's it might help to, I know you lose the damage from Angel landing the last hit, but maybe it would work? Umm that's all I can think of, just some suggestions. Oh and for Stress to give WAR/NIN a try at least, or use Axe and Shield.

#30
Macstorm

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I'll keep this open as long as it stays on topic as I can this can be useful.

PS: The only things I jump to close pretty quick are welcome back threads, going on vacation threads, and other random stupid crap.

#31
Invisible Boy

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But WAR/NIN is so fun. cry

#32
Xerlic

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I'd just like to know why you are so adamant against the NIN sub.

The cool thing about WARs is their versatility. Most wars will have several sets of equipment for if they are tanking or playing a damage dealer as well as having a variety of subs available, the most common ones being nin and thf. It just seems that you don't really want to take advantage of that.

#33
Sephi

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I've pt'd with many WAR/NIN, and they're just about as good as a normal NIN, cept they do more damage. Flena = <3

#34
Resolute

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Okay. Just got told about the thread in game. and had to stop over.

First off.

Serious Props and praise to Stress.

Seriously! who else have I seen recently to take their job and role so seriously as to open up something like this?
----------------------------------------------

now on to the opinions.
I am not an uber high level, but I have had a bit more play time then most in the 50-65+ range. I have to agree that war/mnk is not an 'ideal' choice as main tank.
However, stress was much better MP spongewise on Wed then on Mon.
Mobs: 50+ take much longer to kill, are more evasive and signficantly more spell resistent (enfeebs). Which means that a tank will be taking hits for longer periods.
-----------------------------------------

now on to the /nin portion of this thread. Stress and I have gone back and forth on this. But, allow me to phrase my opinion and why.
HATE GAIN is done by damage dealing, debuffs, ability use.
HATE LOSS is done by damage taken and time.

with those two points assumed.
1. /nin takes less damage, so more hate is conserved (Blink).
2. /nin can do its own debuffs, blind, paralyze, slow; to name the most useful.
3. the blink ability actually generates hate.
4. dual wield builds TP faster and thus more WS which equals greater hate.
5. NIN in sub or main HAS TO HAVE a SAnTA to be useful as a tank
6. It takes a LOT more work to tank with /nin then people think at first.
7. Haste actually speeds up Blink recast time.

so overall, my OPINION is that a war/nin is preferable as a tank post 50 to a war/mnk. HOWEVER, a war/mnk CAN work.
--------------------
*Puts on flame retardent underwear*
---------------------------

FINAL THOUGHT.
This game is about FUN!!! not being perfectionist (I fail at this). There is no reason why we can't kill DC and EM mobs for xp and just take our time.

#35
Roedran

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Those are very good points Reso, and I think Stress is willing to give /NIN a try just needs to get the Utsusemi, and the levels.

/MNK is a great sub up until a certain level for tanking. The best matter of fact. But it is like the DRK job, the subs change depending on the the level ranges, etc. I think MNK starts to taper off at ~50.

I have never tried to use the NIN debuffs as a /NIN sub so i cannot attest to their aggro gaining ability or effectiveness (Land etc.)

As you said Reso at higher levels Mobs are much more resistant to spells as I am finding out as RDM so i am bumping up my Gear to compensate. But imagine a level 25 ninja walking up to the Beetle you all are fighting and tossing a Blind on it.. would it stick?

I know that the Ninja debuffs are more likely to stick and have more effect than a RDM's at the same level but we are talking a Ninjitsu skill of 78 @ 50-WAR/NIN vs. 153 @ 50-NIN/WAR. Kinda like a WHM/BLM Nuking.

One final note that I'd add is I have seen quite a few WAR/NIN lose hate because they tried to do Ninjitsu too much, which is not possible. It is a situational hit saver. i.e. when a Beetle does it's defense special, cast blink. Or when it turns to Wix for example toss up a blink, etc.

#36
Stress

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to everyone asking "why blah blah blah nin sub?"... i ask, 'why do you ask?'

this is not about me hating the job... simply put, i jus don't wanna... i'm a firm believer in "If you don't want to, then don't"... i've heard all this before, so nothing anyone is saying is new to me

so fine, going against my intent, i will lvl a job i never wanted to play in the first place, not to appease anyone or to be left alone... but because i want my team to be able to move forward... and i love the job that i've chosen

#37
Sephi

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You sound like Minalia. :P


60+ WHM/MNK for those who don't know.

#38
Xerlic

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I asked why because I offered my criticism as the title of this thread suggested, and you mentioned in your first post also being the second post of the thread that you were having trouble tanking as WAR/MNK. A possible solution was offered by many people that perhaps you should change your sub, to which you replied You don't want to do it quite adamantly. So, I personally was curious as to why you were so against it.

If this is something that you enjoy doing, then by all means you should keep doing it. Nobody has the right to tell you how to play your character. It is your time spent in front of the computer and it is your money being spent each month. We can only offer you advice.

#39
Macstorm

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I, like Stress, have debated much on what subjob to use for Warrior. As a Galka I look at things differently than Stress, and also with my static having a healing/support heavy feel to it having a White Mage, Red Mage AND Bard.

My feeling is that Ninja might well be a very effective sub for Warrior. As for me and our party set up this is how I would love to see it. I'd love to find a way to powerlevel Tank's Summoner and for him to get Shiva and Garuda. I won't push that on him or anyone else in the party to do work another sub, because they've never said it to me.

I still plan to keep Monk as my sub till 60 then use Samurai.

So at 60 we will be:
Domie - WAR/SAM
Dubhe - DRG/WAR (unless he wants to play THF)
Otanku - WHM/SMN
Rags - THF/WAR (unless he has another idea)
Roedran - RDM/BLM
Sive - BRD/WHM

We have to work strategy to meet the abilities of our party because of the unique layout of our jobs. The worst and best part of our party is the fact that we are not the ideal party layout, and we have to find how our strengths and weaknesses work against certain mobs.

Things maybe slower for us as the levels go up, but I don't think we'll ever have to drop to killing DC and EM mobs for XP.

(Will all the talk from both statics, Wix should rename this thread with both statics. :P )

#40
Stress

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sephiroth lives:
You sound like Minalia. :P


60+ WHM/MNK for those who don't know.

real cute dagg...

my origional plan was to tough out w/ monk sub til 60 for sam... but that not being practical, i am 'biting the bullet', as constable puts it... i'm not big on cookie cutter set ups, the game loses flavor like that... altho i'm not stubborn enuf to syphon xp from my pt til... as i said before, i appreciate any constructive criticism (this includes you xerlic :P ).. i'm not trying to come across as unappreciative or straight out rude... some of you have pushed this to the point where i was getting annoyed... like domie said, i would never tell anyone how to play thier job... but honestly let's move away from the ninja sub discussion, i'm doing what i can, and that's all that should matter... now other that this, is there anything else that needs to be figured out before monday madness?

#41
Arithon

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quote:


I'd love to find a way to powerlevel Tank's Summoner and for him to get Shiva and Garuda. [/QB]

Just like to say that just like how roe was saying about th nin enfeebles on a war/nin will almost be usless cause of the fact that they are half lvl it is same with smn skills. So if Tank had Garuda and Shive (not sure why shiva) the abilitys will be half lvl. So with the Blinkaga will be half lvl, and even with skill capped on a smn main, the blinks will not be perfect mobs WILL get through easy, if it isnt capped u will, i have seen this, see the blinks be ignored all together. This is why u have to cap the smning skill. So having blinkaga on in my opinion from a subed smn is pretty much a waste of the 100 - 110 MP that it uses. :D

#42
Roedran

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I had no clue the Blinkga was affected by the Smn level. A blink is a blink, or so I thought.

Also just as a side note Stress.. War/Nin didn't start until FFXI was released here, as was the case w/ most advanced jobs. So it is not so much cookie cutter, it actually used to be if you played War/Nin you were like a RDM/NIN a gimp. But now it is an accepted and even pushed job combination.

A note for our Static. The one thing we will really be missing is a BLM and the Omega DD spot, especially when we get to crabs (it will be better when I don't have to MB w/ Water II as well). I can try and pull my own weight with my AF, Ice Staff and Wizard's Earring Moldavite earring which at 60 will be adding 25 total to elemental magic skillz and some directly to my Magic Atk Bonus. The most I have ever nuked for on an IT (Beetle) w/ Water II was 243 (Without above goodies), and also amazingly enough I got the Double MB on that one, which was for 16 dmg on the Blizzard. So as you can see I am no BLM so fights will innevitably last longer.

#43
Sephi

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Stress:

Stress:
You sound like Minalia. :P


60+ WHM/MNK for those who don't know.

real cute dagg...

Why should I even talk anymore?

#44
Roedran

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Because you are cool.

#45
Xerlic

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Roe:

Ya know, you don't have to xp off of crabs in Kuftal. =P The beauty of your static is you can discuss where to go before hand instead of following the masses.

On the topic of blink, Arithon is correct. The only 'perfect' blink is Utsusemi. It doesn't matter what your ninjitsu skill is. You will always get 3 images with Ichi and 4 images with Ni. The mob will always have to get rid of these images before it can attack you. Blink, the WHM spell, (which is what Garuda uses, except it is for the entire party) can be 'ignored' by mobs. So, even if you have blink up, a mob can still have a chance of hitting you instead of one of the images. Halved summoning skill makes it kinda ineffective. =/

#46
Macstorm

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Well as far as WHM/SMN goes, with Tank being a Hume and currently subbing Black Mage he could benefit from the extra MP at least. I rarely see Tank use any Black Mage spells in our party, so why not give him the option of having Aerial Armor (Blinkaga at sub lvl50) and Freeze Armor (Ice Spikaga at sub lvl56).

Xerlic:
Ya know, you don't have to xp off of crabs in Kuftal. =P The beauty of your static is you can discuss where to go before hand instead of following the masses.

And I just want to second what Xerlic said, we just need to FIND the right place. :D

#47
Roedran

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Roedran:
IMO to help with hate, one rdm always keep stress hasted, the other keep angelina/oxe hasted. Split up curing between reso and sive as even as possible like using cure III's traded back and forth, even if you overlap heals it is only a Cure III not to much lost MP. Split up enfeebs like Sive take xx and reso take xx. Keep the beasty you are fighting Gravitated.

Never haste Wix (Sorry Wix you do a lot of damage fast enough already) Also Wix only use his abilities if he needs em. I.e. Boost and focus before WS, Dodge if he pulls aggro, etc. If you can get Stress to end the SC's it might help to, I know you lose the damage from Angel landing the last hit, but maybe it would work?

These are my suggestions from what I have seen of your PT in action, this is all w/ /NIN aside. Gimme some feedback on my feedback. Stress can end Distortion SC's with Spinning Axe I believe.

#48
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lol, Tank has more MP than me right now, and I am LOADED with the MP gear/Pies and fully leveled BLM sub..

He makes me jealous but proud. :(

In regards to our static, I need to backup heal some more because currently this scenario happens a lot:

Dubhe is hit many times...
Dubhe has 20 HP left...
Otanku cast Cure IV on Dubhe...
Monster thinks tank is yummy...
Otanku cast Cure III on Otanku...
Monster is really interested in Otanku now...
etc...

The only problem is that I am spending most my time trying to get my damn enfeebs to stick. Hopefully my new gear I have been farming/selling old armor for will help. but I think if I were to get to the same level as Domie it would be easier, I am 1 level behind a few people I think, that seems to make a huge diff.

#49
Macstorm

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You could let Wix tank. :P

#50
Stress

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Roedran:
So it is not so much cookie cutter

actually it is :D 'cookie cutter' doesn't transend time and space, so when we started playing til now makes no difference... it's all about the frequency... be aware english is my second language!...

and dagg... i have no idea who this whm/mnk person is... all i said was... well damn, you know what i said... it's ok, count to 10... as far as i know it was a random comment :P

you know... i should let wix tank... not at all effecient, but loads of fun :D



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