Official Doctor Who New Series Discussion (spoilers)

[Driver]

re: 8th, 8a and 9th usage

 

I get how Doctor Who EU establishes the 8th's personality more, but just going off the movie I don't see why he couldn't have ended his lifespan taking a hard choice to fight and end the war. I mean prior to this episode it was just sorta assumed either the 8th or 9th were the guys in that anyway. Giving how smiley 9 can be however I still think it'd be weird for him to be the warrior and I chalk up his angry moments to just being the first regen after the moment.

I agree-- I think it's that juxtaposition that would have made it more powerful.

 

re: Generations

I don't think the Doctor's have to be renumbered, I think 8a is best just seen like the Valeyard or something. Just an alt-temp-generation, just so happens that this alt lives a long time due to the war.

The Galifrey security dude said "All 13 Doctors" which could be taken in a lot of ways. Hurt was part of that, and he accepted the name in the end, so that would seem to imply he's to be counted as one of the 13. In a way, this makes it so it makes sense that in terms of the "present" Doctor, up until now he wasn't counted. In a way, it canonizes the renumbering.

 

That said, if The Curator is indeed a future version of the Doctor it opens quite the can of worms that he can be different things in different bodies.

 

I'm willing to chill with the idea that the timelock is coexisting with the painting thing and I like the idea that when Gallifrey returns the Master will be there. I rewatched "The End of Time" this afternoon. Even though the Timelords specifically say "it's the last day of the time war" in that episode, and that is what is said in the special, there is a lot of time in a day... one series of events could co-occur or successively.

I don't think Gallifrey is in the time lock anymore, but is in a stasis cell (same thing, effectively) but now it can be retrieved and returned to its normal place.

Yeah, same thing in essence, plus, the events of End of Time and this both happened on the same day. The Security guys say the high council is in a locked-room meeting, which is exactly how End of Time started. So either it happens simulatneously, or Gallifrey comes to Earth after the stasis is established. Either way it still works, and keeps Tennant's death intact.

 

 

I don't think Eccleston was deliberately being a "tool". He just doesn't seem to look back at his work, and why should he? If he didn't have a particularly enjoyable experience while making DW, what's his incentive to revisit it?

Normally, I'd agree with you. I remember people getting mad when Terry Ferrell bailed on DS9 knowing there was one season left. For a lot of actors, a job is a job. I've quit jobs I would have zero interest in going back to. What's different here is that this is kind of special. Every guy who's played the Doctor has said so, that there's a level of heart involved in it. Plus, this is the only show to hit this sort of milestone, and there is a huge fanbase supporting it. It would have been a nice thing to do. Eccelson's problems were with Davies and his fear of being typecast. Davies is no longer invovled, and it's not like playing Destro or hiding behind prosthetics in Thor is catapulting him to fame. Dr. Who has more fans that would have been happy to see him than anything else he's done since leaving.

 

I, for one, am disappointed that they showed more of the Time War at all. A war across time, between "two almighty civilizations", should not, in my view, look like some conventional war with ray guns and armored soldiers. I can't imagine what a "Nightmare Child" is, but it's something unique to a time war, and I'd hate to think it was just a big spaceship. Maintaining a mystery about the Last Great Time War makes it something impressive and unique, and something of such epic scale that it can't be depicted in any medium.

I don't disagree. I liked that they purposefully didn't show it for so long and it was this unspoken of thing. But we've seen glimpses here and there over the years. I either would love to see it all sorted out and explained, or left alone and remain unspoken of. What we got today, more little bits, wasn't something I was crazy for, but since it was such a big part of the Doctor's life, I feel like it was worth seeing.

 

But again, I wanted more.

[Driver]

Okay, here's a theory...

 

Gallifrey was always put into stasis. The Time War is time-locked. What that means is that events are locked in place. Tennant and Smith were allowed to go back into that moment of the Time War because that's how that event always happened, the Moment let them. Ten and Eleven had always been there when the War Doctor decided on the Moment. There was an explosion. That explosion was the one perceived as the destruction of the Time Lords and the Daleks.

 

In reality, the Time Lords were put in stasis. The Daleks were still destroyed though, except for the Emperor who was the one seen at the Parting of Ways. He was the one that survived the "inferno." At the same time, the events of The End of Time is going down. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Tennant's Doctor at this stage is right before the events of End of Time.

 

None of the Doctors could remember what happened because they crossed timelines. Hurt said he wouldn't remember what happened, so any gaps in his memory would be associated with using The Moment. Since Galifrey was gone, he'd assumed he'd burned them all. But we see now he was still the Doctor, and he would never do that--

 

SO... Smith remembers now, ironically as the one who is most forgetful, because he is at the point in his life were the eventscome to pass the last time.

[pavonis]

Don't forget the lone Dalek that fell through time and landed on Ascension island in 1962, subsequently captured by Henry Van Statten, imprisoned in Utah until 2012, and finally committed suicide.

 

Tennant's Doctor would have to be from before "The End of Time". The Tenth (Eleventh, I suppose now) Doctor was running around "hiding" from the four knocks that would signal his impending death, so there's lots of time to drop in a visit with Tennant's Doctor. He was hiding from his fate. I suppose it could be from the time where he was revisiting his old companions after he absorbed his lethal dose of radiation, but I would think he'd have a different demeanor when his death was impending.

[Pong Messiah]

Pretty good as far as specials go!

[Driver]

 

Tennant's Doctor would have to be from before "The End of Time". The Tenth (Eleventh, I suppose now) Doctor was running around "hiding" from the four knocks that would signal his impending death, so there's lots of time to drop in a visit with Tennant's Doctor. He was hiding from his fate. I suppose it could be from the time where he was revisiting his old companions after he absorbed his lethal dose of radiation, but I would think he'd have a different demeanor when his death was impending.

If I recall, the marriage to the Queen went down during Tennant's solo travels, during his last season. His joke about Good Queen Bess was to the Ood in the beginning of End of Time.

[The Human Torch]

Love the points/theories made by all. Glad I wasn't the only one pondering.

 

Another thought that "just popped in there" this morning was that the special felt drastically disconnected from the last episode of the season, "Name of the Doctor". That episode abruptly ends with Clara and the Doctor stuck in his own time-swirly and The Warrior staring at them. Then the special starts with everything being happy go lucky. It's weird and disjointed.

[Rogue 3]

Agreed - and by the looks of the brief trailer for the Xmas special, he is surprised to find himself back on Trenzalore having only recently been there. That was a bit strange.

But I was happy with last nights show. Great banter between the 3 Doctors - Hurt in particular being dismayed with their speech!

"Timey wimey?"

"I don't know where he gets that from!"

[Obsidian]

I'll elaborate on exactly why I had a problem with the 'War Doctor'. This is supposed to be the incarnation that destroyed Galifrey, something that the later incarnations basically disown him for. Yet, for doing something so heinous that they just don't talk about him, the other incarnations, especially 10, just won't shut up about what they did. It would have given this revelation more gravitas had the other Doctors not acknowledged their own guilt previously. Repeatedly. The script just didn't give us enough to CARE about the War Doctor otherwise.

 

I understand WHY Moffat chose to go this 'unknown incarnation' route. Because he could not see the 8th Doctor being the one to destroy his people. I agree with him. As I said, of ALL the Doctors, 8 came off as the most romantic and compassionate, and therefor the LEAST likely to do something like that. I think it makes more sense for it to have been 9, and again, listening to Hurt's dialogue and watching his performance, there is a LOT of Nine in there, to the point that they could have slotted Eccleston into the role without making many changes to the script at all. That's why I said it seems obvious that the role was originally intended for Eccleston. Moffat may claim otherwise, but he does tend to lie, and put out red herrings. Maybe Moffat is telling the truth for once, but the character seems so Nine-like that it makes me wonder.

 

That's why I feel his presence was the weakest part of the episode, and it would have been better served had they been able to get Eccleston.

[Pong Messiah]

I enjoyed An Adventure in Space and Time and the 5th Doctor's spoof (and 6 and 7) a lot, as well. I have a feeling Adventure and the "reboot" are going to hold up better than DotD.

 

[The Human Torch]

I hear ya, Obsidian. You make a good point. I think it's solid when considering the radio dramas and all that, but I just look at the movie and see no reason 8 couldn't be the War Doctor.

 

Pong, I also thought "An Adventure in Time and Space" was tremendously better than the special, the only thing I didn't like in the Bradley movie was 11 popping up out of nowhere. I felt it was hamfisted and took me out of the moment.

 

Daydream:

 

8 lives his entire generation into extreme John Hurt age. Old 8 is John Hurt. He's lived hundreds of years avoiding the war, running and running and being a clever boy etc. Finally physically worn in this generation, at his wits end, beaten by time the Webisode starts and Old 8 is given a chance to be young again... to have all his vitality, to stop running, to be the Timelord that is needed to stop the Timewar. Old 8 drinks the potion and is de-aged, not regenerated. The Special then has timey wimey Old 8, Re-Young 8, 10 and 11.

[Pong Messiah]

the only thing I didn't like in the Bradley movie was 11 popping up out of nowhere. I felt it was hamfisted and took me out of the moment.

Yeah, definitely. Didn't ruin the movie or anything (he was, after all, truly delusional by then), but just seemed really unnecessary. Could also just be that I'm tiring of seeing Matt Smith everywhere, though. Good doctor, despite being given some unfortunate rubbish to work with at times, but just, just... enough already!

 

[The Human Torch]

Yeah that's how I felt. Didn't ruin it, but was like UGHreally?

 

So I'm sitting here watching The Graham Norton Show (with Tennant & Smith) and I suddenly realized I am totally on board with the Doctor regenerating into a woman. Someone like Emma Thompson would rock the role. I have whole stories exploding in my mind based on that concept and casting right now.

[R.CAllen]

So that was kind of fun! I don't think it would have worked nearly as well with Eccleston replacing John Hurt --- maybe it could have been improved if he'd been there in addition to Hurt but not necessarily. I view the John Hurt's Doctor's role in this special as a sort of synecdoche for all the Doctors from the old program and, as it were, to the entirety of the old program itself. If it had just been McGann's Doctor (as pretty much everyone used to assume he was the one who fought in the Time War and did all the bad stuff and regenerated into Eccleston) in the role of the Doctor Who Kills All Those Children then it wouldn't have the same impact to me as the way the show has created this second somehow larger-than-life John Hurt Doctor who spent decades fighting a war and who in his disdain for the new show's Doctors, his general fuddy-duddiness, age, and in his unforgivable sin of Killing Those Kids (which, on an extra-narrative level, is really Going Off The Air) stands in for the old show itself and those who still adhere to it. If that makes any sense.

 

Other thinkings :

 

* I agree that what we saw is the way It Always Happened rather than a change to the way it happened the first time around.

 

* You don't need two super special places beneath two prominent London landmarks full of two kinds of super special stuff, Moffat. Just pick one and go with it.

 

* "Never cruel nor cowardly". Nice to have that on the show itself.

 

* The numbering. Has the show ¹ ever had The Doctor say "Hi, I'm the Eleventh Doctor" or whatever? Pretty sure the number (unlike the Time Lords get 13 Regenerations thing) is fan terminology that's used for ease of reference rather than something within the show itself. Although, on the other hand, that stuff intermingles freely enough for it not to truly matter maybe. My personal count keeps all the proper established Doctors at their old numbers and puts John Hurt as the 12th Doctor (he is the 12th actor to play the role of The Doctor, after all ²) with Peter Capaldi as the 13th rather than bumping anyone around needlessly.

 

* I view the Tom Baker cameo almost in the same light as the Matt Smith cameo in the docu-drama in the sense that it is Something That Didn't Really Happen, Of Course, But Isn't It Nice To Think It Did. Or, somewhat differently, the Baker character is something like the Valeyard or the faces from The Brain of Morbius or really really what it would be like to have David Bradley on the show again in any capacity. It's a person who's clearly not (or, quote unquote, can't be) The Doctor on one level and yet very truthfully is on another. I want to throw the word "anagogical" in here but don't seem to have the clarity on hand with which to properly define what I mean by the words I choose.

 

^{1 And by "show" I also mean the audio dramas, novelizations, spin-off series, etc.}

^{2 Well, no, of course he isn't. But you know what I mean!}

[Ryn]

This is probably the best, and funniest, Doctor Who related thing I've seen all week:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01m3kfy

That was a lot of fun!

[Driver]

* The numbering. Has the show ¹ ever had The Doctor say "Hi, I'm the Eleventh Doctor" or whatever? Pretty sure the number (unlike the Time Lords get 13 Regenerations thing) is fan terminology that's used for ease of reference rather than something within the show itself. Although, on the other hand, that stuff intermingles freely enough for it not to truly matter maybe. My personal count keeps all the proper established Doctors at their old numbers and puts John Hurt as the 12th Doctor (he is the 12th actor to play the role of The Doctor, after all ²) with Peter Capaldi as the 13th rather than bumping anyone around needlessly.

I know the Fifth doctor introduced himself as such in the Five Doctors. I don't think Matt Smith has ever said that exactly, but the silence like to talk about the fall of the 11th. Couple other references too.

 

But I agree, for the most part, we have to number the Doctors, and merchandising has to, but in the show itself it's fair game. They were pretty clear that the 9th-11th Doctors didn't remember what happened with Galifrey, and the 11th only remembers having visited it from the future. So he may going forward from tat experience start referring to himself as the 12th now that he knows his past WAS in keeping with the name of the Doctor.

 

There's rumors floating around the numbering will be revisited in the Xmas special, and that Tennant may actually count as 2 regenerations, making Capaldi the final Doctor... you know, until he finds Galifrey and the council grants him more.

 

* I view the Tom Baker cameo almost in the same light as the Matt Smith cameo in the docu-drama in the sense that it is Something That Didn't Really Happen, Of Course, But Isn't It Nice To Think It Did. Or, somewhat differently, the Baker character is something like the Valeyard or the faces from The Brain of Morbius or really really what it would be like to have David Bradley on the show again in any capacity. It's a person who's clearly not (or, quote unquote, can't be) The Doctor on one level and yet very truthfully is on another. I want to throw the word "anagogical" in here but don't seem to have the clarity on hand with which to properly define what I mean by the words I choose.

Yeah, I like to think of it the same way as McGann namechecking his companions from the radio drama-- it's a tip o' the hat, not an iron clad canonizing. That said, on a second viewing it seems a lot more pointed that the Doctor will at some point regenerate with no limits, and control it to the extent other timelords have, and revisit his 4th form. It's a fun thought, but if they never come back to it, I wouldn't be too bummed.

 

At the end of the day, it's not like they will stop after 13 regenerations are up. The Master got around it, no reason the Doctor won't too-- especially if the show continues to perform well.

[Obsidian]

Actually, they already have a way to justify any further regenerations. Remember 'Let's Kill Hitler'? River Song explicitly gave the Doctor her remaining regenerations to save him, and since she'd only regenerated twice, that would give him at least another 10 or so to work with. I remember thinking exactly that when the episode first aired.

[Driver]

I don't think that was giving a number so much as it was using all the energy in her body stored for regenerating was used to counteract the poison.

 

But they could do it the way you say. Again, the master cheated it, we know the council could grant or remove them. There's never been any question the Doctor could break the rule-- just curious to see how they do it.

[The Human Torch]

With those examples plus the magic juice from the McGann Webisode I think it's safe to say that the regeneration limit might already have been "back door retconned" ... to mash some terms.

[Driver]

I'll retcon your back door....

[Obsidian]

I don't think that was giving a number so much as it was using all the energy in her body stored for regenerating was used to counteract the poison.

 

But they could do it the way you say. Again, the master cheated it, we know the council could grant or remove them. There's never been any question the Doctor could break the rule-- just curious to see how they do it.

It wasn't given a set number, but they DID say she gave up her remaining regenerations to save him, so it would be easy to use that to give the Doctor more than 13 incarnations. It's of course not the only way they could do so. Just pointing out that they have a justification already written into the story.

[Gman]

I guess this whole regeneration numbering thing is going to get addressed a lot earlier than expected, the upcoming Christmas Special “The Time of the Doctor.”

The link has regeneration numbering spoilers:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/11/26/matt-smith-is-the-13th-doctor

[The Human Torch]

Hmm. I can be on board with ^that idea. Like most things, I guess it will depend on how it's done.

[Rogue 3]

Sounds good to me - pleased the additional Tennant one for the "Doctor/Donna" is in there as it should be.

Will clear things up once and for all. Just hope (like we all do) that there is a good justification for the new cycle of regenerations.

[Rogue 3]

Actually, there is a small plot hole there - back in the Impossible Astronaut, he did start to regenerate when he was initially shot. Unless they say that it would have ultimately failed I guess.

[Driver]

That wasn't him- it was the teselecta faking his death.

 

I read this article last week, and while I am fine with it if it is true, there's two things that strike me:

 

1. The Mirror is a tabloid rag similar to the American National Enquirer and is know for making stuff up.

 

2. After obviously over thinking the War Doctor's existence it occurs to me that Moffat doesn't really explain anything outright. It's just slipped in. I'd be shocked if he did a story directly questioning a key fan-obsessed mystery.

 

He'll answer it without really answering it.