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Official Doctor Who New Series Discussion (spoilers)


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That, and pretty much this:

The 'new chick' had already been set up.   Lot's of pretty spot on fan theories regarding how Clara is a meta-textual analogy for the show itself. She's born on Nov 23, the show's original air date. S

That reads like HuffPo had an embargoed interview they ran early. Somebody's getting fired.

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Well, anyway.

Just got back home to London from holidays and caught up on the Night of the Doctor. How brilliant to see Paul McGann back at last! I have been hoping for so long to see him in a series - I had posted on here a good while back that if the likes of Tennant or now Smith wanted a break from the role, rather than just regenerating again they could have revisited the 8th Doctor for a few adventures. But anyway, I was really happy to see him back and finally get a send off. All set up nicely for tomorrow's anniversary special!

 

Additionally, the specially made drama "An Adventure in Time and Space" was shown and having just watched it, I have to say that it was expertly made. David Bradley puts in a superb performance as William Hartnell. Really enjoyable, but the scenes where he is told that he will be replaced were heartbreaking. Great stuff!

 

Great to see your review of "An Adventure in Time and Space", Rogue! I was so hoping that Bradley would be as awesome as he looked. So now that you've see it would you be for Bradley appearing in Doctor Who proper in some sort of Timey Wimey story?

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Definitely - he looks the part in the full makeup and delivers his lines in a spookily similar way to how Hartnell did in the scenes from episodes that are featured. Be great to see him in a future story.

The actress playing Susan is uncannily like Carole Ann Ford as well! Ian and Barbara less so I think, but close enough for me.

 

Be aware that a good chunk of the programme is on how it got off the ground, so Verity Lambert and Sydney Newman have a fair bit of screen time.

Hope you guys enjoy it - I thought it was spot on.

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Re. An adventure in Space and Time. Much better and much more emotional than I expected. If true, I never knew that William Hartnell was that attached to the role. His demand to know what every TARDIS switch does and use them uniformly and to expect the console to move while in flight show why he made the series work, and why he had the reputation of difficult. And the "I dont want to go" line - last words of Doctor 10. Nice touch. I suppose I can accept the vision of Matt Smith at the TARDIS console at the end. Happy 50th Anniversary and such. Great characterizations and the sets from Dalek Invasion of Earth are identical. MUCH care was given to this show. Great acting from all. I give it 5 TARDISes.

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Excellent! Pleased you liked the Matt Smith cameo - thought it was a nice touch "seeing" the legacy he set.

The attention to detail was really impressive hey! And another plus point to having David Bradley playing the first Doctor in a future story is that they recreated his Tardis console room so accurately. Great stuff!

3 hours to go! :-)

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Loved that episode! Great banter between the Doctors: "What are you going to do with that? Assemble a cabinet at them?" "Sometimes can't you just walk past a fez?"

 

Great fun - John Hurt was really good as you would expect from an actor of his quality. Disappointing that a certain actor chose not to appear towards the end - won't say just now in case some of you are yet to watch.

 

Very pleased with it all round - cracking 50th tribute!

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Did it live up to the hype? Almost! Not as bad as it could have been. Not as brilliant as promised. But there were many many great moments. The classic start sequence, John Hurt saying, “Do you always talk with your hands flailing about?!?” LOVED IT! Bit of the Time War explained. John Hurt and David Tenant were brilliant actors. Mat Smith acted. And Gallifrey is back! But, it did seem like a slow beginning up until all escaped from the cell. And the Zygons presence in the show was for what exactly?

Continuity wise, loved the shot at the end with the first 12 Docs looking up at Gallifrey. Gallifrey president stated “All 13 of them.” Seems as if Hurt is officially 9, regenerating into Christopher Eccleston (Doc 10 now) and Peter Capalidi’s eyes confirm the new numbering. Not sure why the end credits listed Billie Piper as “Rose.” It was not Rose. She was The Bad Wolf.

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"An Adventure in Time and Space" was wonderful. I adored the creative touches like; Tardis blue showing up everywhere and the "I don't want to go." scene which was framed to let the fireplace light Bradley like a regeneration scene. I would love to see Bradley return as the 1st Doctor.

 

"The Day of the Doctor" was fun, but... I'm also trying to figure out how that can be and yet the events in "The End of Time" and time lock and etc etc are? Also I thought The Curator would be Bill Nighy from the Van Gogh episode. Neat to see who it was, but at the same time I kinda wish it was Bill Nighy. Does that make me a bad fan?

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So, my thoughts on 'Day of the Doctor'...

 

Good. Not great. I liked all the nods to the Classic series, I liked Tom Baker's appearance, Clara is becoming more awesome, the implications the episode raised, Hurt having the classic screwdriver, seeing Tennant and Smith sharing the screen, seeing a Glimpse of the Time war, as well as the fact that it pretty much turned the entire series on it's head.

 

However, John Hurt's Doctor was the weak point for me. Nothing against Hurt's performance. He did a great job, however his role was not NECESSARY from a story perspective. It is clear that this was originally planned with Eccleston in the Hurt role. His dialogue even sounded like the 9th. The 'War Doctor' was wasted potential. Shame behind-the-scenes politics made this necessary, but story should have been changed to make us care more about Hurt's Doctor.

 

My final grade would be B+. Too many flaws to make it great, and while an enjoyable story, still not as good as other milestone stories like 'The Three Doctors' (the first multi-doctor adventure), or 'Remembrance of the Daleks' (the 25th Anniversary special).

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I'm not sure the story could be done with the 9th. He was angry, sure, but he's also very silly (in a good way). Huge grins, like the 4th. I'm not sure the 9th being the War Doctor could just go on being the Doctor. The regeneration has to happen to allow the Doctor to "put it out of his mind" a bit. There has to be that separation otherwise the 9th would truly be a madman, and not in a good way. The War Doctor generation is necessary.

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Aftherthought: I'll say this about the "was supposed to be the 9th" thing. It should have just been McGann. Should have just been the 8th, 10th and 11th. Forget the mini web thing that brought McGann back, the War Doctor story should just have been the story of the Doctor "that we forgot" it should have been the last adventure of McGann's 8th which then regens at the climax to the 9th.

 

That solves all number issues etc. Plus it still allows that separation between "The Moment" decision and the 9th that has to be in order for the 9th to be himself and not a psycho who grins after just doing the deed. The regen allows the 9th to refind his way. The War Doctor is unnecessary in that way, but he couldn't have been the 9th.

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Yeah, but the problem with using the 8th is that, of all the Doctors, he's the LEAST likely to do what the 'War Doctor' was going to do. The 8th was probably the most gentle and compassionate Doctor their has ever been.

 

The 9th and possibly the 7th were the only ones that had enough of a ruthless streak to do it (although 7 would have tricked the Daleks and Time Lords into wiping THEMSELVES out rather than doing so directly). Remember, 9 was willing to sacrifice Rose to stop a single Dalek, in order to protect the rest of humanity.

 

He was also willing to allow a good portion of humanity to die, even be directly responsible for their deaths, in order to wipe out the Dalek fleet in 'The Parting of the Ways'. So, I could easily see 9 deciding to sacrifice two races to save the entire universe. It's very much in character for him. He was very much a pragmatist when it came down to it.

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And Gallifrey is back! ... And the Zygons presence in the show was for what exactly?

 

Continuity wise, loved the shot at the end with the first 12 Docs looking up at Gallifrey. Gallifrey president stated “All 13 of them.” Seems as if Hurt is officially 9, regenerating into Christopher Eccleston (Doc 10 now) and Peter Capalidi’s eyes confirm the new numbering. Not sure why the end credits listed Billie Piper as “Rose.” It was not Rose. She was The Bad Wolf.

Gallifrey isn't back yet, just out there, lost, waiting to be found again by the Doctor. So we still won't have the Time Lords in the show, not for a long time yet, I'd say.

 

The Zygons were there to raise a parallel situation to the Doctor's (or would that be the Doctors'?) choice about Gallifrey, and his desire to not sacrifice anyone to save someone.

 

BTW, that wasn't the president, it was a general. Rassilon is still Lord President, and presumably still wants to wipe out the Universe to destroy the Daleks, and leave the Time Lords as beings of pure consciousness. I think they'll have to deal with that someday, when Gallifrey is found again.

 

...It is clear that this was originally planned with Eccleston in the Hurt role. His dialogue even sounded like the 9th. The 'War Doctor' was wasted potential. Shame behind-the-scenes politics made this necessary, but story should have been changed to make us care more about Hurt's Doctor.

It is not "clear" at all. Moffat wrote this story with the specific idea of a big guest star playing a previously unknown, unheard of incarnation of the Doctor. This story was not written with Eccleston in mind, and definitely not with him in Hurt's place. They may have tried to recruit him, but he still wouldn't have been the War Doctor.

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John Hurt is great, but it would have been more fun and better for continuity if it was Eccelson or McGann.

 

I swear there was a split second of the regeneration where you could see Eccelson, but they cut right before it was clear. That made me mad, I really thought they were going to give us a cameo. In fact doing the regeneration out of nowhere and NOT doing the cameo was a dick move. I wonder if it was written in there and they were hoping Eccelson would come around. You know what-- screw him. He could have taken a day out of his life to shoot a single scene at least. He's being a tool about it.

 

Overall, I was kind of disappointed in the episode. I thought it was going to be more about the time war, but it was incidental. Really, the last fifteen minutes was what I wanted the whole episode to be. Given the doubles they used for an Adventure in Time and Space, and McGann's webisode, AND the fact that all the living past Doctor are willing to do VO work I really hoped for all of them to show up in the end. Well, they did, but I wanted a lot more. They shot with McGann so I really don't get why they resorted to using TV movie archive footage when they could have given him a single shot from closer to his webisode.

 

Not thrilled they renumbered-- though it's totally not a big deal. Also bummed Tennant didn't get to see Rose. The Zygon storyline was... there. It felt like an average episode. Super loved how Tennant and Smith interacted. Loved the Capaldi cameo, because it would make sense that he was there, more so than pre-Time War Doctors.

 

Looking ahead, interested to see how the continuity is effected. I'm guessing that even though Galifrey was taken out of reality, it is still in the timelock, which wouldn't negate what happened with the president and Tennant's death, since that was all about escaping the timelock.

 

Which means, when he DOES find Galifrey, The Master will likely be there. And of course, if they stick with the time lord council being the ones to grant regenerations, it will be easy for the Doctor to get another set of lives.

 

So was the Curator just a guy that resembled the 4th Doctor, or id he an alternate universe version of the 4th Doctor that never regenerated?

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re: 8th, 8a and 9th usage

 

I get how Doctor Who EU establishes the 8th's personality more, but just going off the movie I don't see why he couldn't have ended his lifespan taking a hard choice to fight and end the war. I mean prior to this episode it was just sorta assumed either the 8th or 9th were the guys in that anyway. Giving how smiley 9 can be however I still think it'd be weird for him to be the warrior and I chalk up his angry moments to just being the first regen after the moment.

 

re: Generations

 

I don't think the Doctor's have to be renumbered, I think 8a is best just seen like the Valeyard or something. Just an alt-temp-generation, just so happens that this alt lives a long time due to the war.

 

re: The War Doctor's title

 

I don't like "War Doctor". It should just be The Warrior. Then you have The Doctors, The Valeyard and The Warrior. Simple, Clean. In my head that is how it will be, except for the clean part... because of River. Oh yeah!

 

re: Painting/Timelock/Continuity

 

I'm willing to chill with the idea that the timelock is coexisting with the painting thing and I like the idea that when Gallifrey returns the Master will be there. I rewatched "The End of Time" this afternoon. Even though the Timelords specifically say "it's the last day of the time war" in that episode, and that is what is said in the special, there is a lot of time in a day... one series of events could co-occur or successively.

 

re: The Curator

 

The Curator specifically says that when he, The Doctor, gets really old some favorite faces will get reused. This seems pretty solid that when The Doctor finally sits down he'll generate into an old face for... nostalgia purposes I guess. Like going back to an old, favorite hairstyle or something. I really wish this had been Bill Nighy however. Would have been an awesome call back to the Van Gogh episode.

 

re: The Plot

 

It was ugh in a lot of places, but hey that is par for the course. I didn't mind that the Zygons were only used as a mirroring device for The Moment. I also agree that I wanted more of the climax like stuff, but I did enjoy the money spent on the Timewar scenes, those might be the best looking work I've seen in Doctor Who.

 

re: Rose

 

It is a little cheap that Rose wasn't even Rose etc. etc. Perhaps a better thing would have been for it to be Rose and the Human Doctor with the Moment taking the form of the Tardis Lady from a season ago, or maybe Susan or something... HAHA! OR K9! That would have been cute. Anyway with Human Doctor and Rose we could have something interesting and fresh to talk about on camera between the Doctors instead of the usual oneupmanship.

 

re: Chris Ecc

 

If the franchise offered an olive branch and he snubbed it then I agree that he's being a ****. But who knows really what's happening there.

 

Afterthought: Tennant's hair was all fubared. Yeah. I can't help it. Hairstyles. Well they did **** it up there.

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John Hurt is great, but it would have been more fun and better for continuity if it was Eccelson or McGann.

I swear there was a split second of the regeneration where you could see Eccelson, but they cut right before it was clear. That made me mad, I really thought they were going to give us a cameo. In fact doing the regeneration out of nowhere and NOT doing the cameo was a dick move. I wonder if it was written in there and they were hoping Eccelson would come around. You know what-- screw him. He could have taken a day out of his life to shoot a single scene at least. He's being a tool about it.

 

Overall, I was kind of disappointed in the episode. I thought it was going to be more about the time war, but it was incidental. Really, the last fifteen minutes was what I wanted the whole episode to be. Given the doubles they used for an Adventure in Time and Space, and McGann's webisode, AND the fact that all the living past Doctor are willing to do VO work I really hoped for all of them to show up in the end. Well, they did, but I wanted a lot more. They shot with McGann so I really don't get why they resorted to using TV movie archive footage when they could have given him a single shot from closer to his webisode.

 

Not thrilled they renumbered-- though it's totally not a big deal. Also bummed Tennant didn't get to see Rose. The Zygon storyline was... there. It felt like an average episode. Super loved how Tennant and Smith interacted. Loved the Capaldi cameo, because it would make sense that he was there, more so than pre-Time War Doctors.

 

Looking ahead, interested to see how the continuity is effected. I'm guessing that even though Galifrey was taken out of reality, it is still in the timelock, which wouldn't negate what happened with the president and Tennant's death, since that was all about escaping the timelock.

 

Which means, when he DOES find Galifrey, The Master will likely be there. And of course, if they stick with the time lord council being the ones to grant regenerations, it will be easy for the Doctor to get another set of lives.

 

So was the Curator just a guy that resembled the 4th Doctor, or id he an alternate universe version of the 4th Doctor that never regenerated?

I don't think Eccleston was deliberately being a "tool". He just doesn't seem to look back at his work, and why should he? If he didn't have a particularly enjoyable experience while making DW, what's his incentive to revisit it?

 

I, for one, am disappointed that they showed more of the Time War at all. A war across time, between "two almighty civilizations", should not, in my view, look like some conventional war with ray guns and armored soldiers. I can't imagine what a "Nightmare Child" is, but it's something unique to a time war, and I'd hate to think it was just a big spaceship. Maintaining a mystery about the Last Great Time War makes it something impressive and unique, and something of such epic scale that it can't be depicted in any medium.

 

I don't think Gallifrey is in the time lock anymore, but is in a stasis cell (same thing, effectively) but now it can be retrieved and returned to its normal place.

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