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There is no need to jump through all those hoops to explain a casting decision. It's not like Dr Who actors haven't played multiple roles before. (Colin Baker appeared in a 5th Doctor serial before being cast as the Doctor himself, for example). Any attempt to explain things like that would just come off as lame.

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That, and pretty much this:

The 'new chick' had already been set up.   Lot's of pretty spot on fan theories regarding how Clara is a meta-textual analogy for the show itself. She's born on Nov 23, the show's original air date. S

That reads like HuffPo had an embargoed interview they ran early. Somebody's getting fired.

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There is a photo posted on the 'Book earlier or whatev, in it 10 and 11 are looking at someone... in the trailer I always assume that would be 8a, but the photo has the person BLURRED OUT intentionally. The blurring makes it looks like another fan favorite Doctor.

 

https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1476016_764930410187655_1221866986_n.jpg

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I'm holding on to my theory that John Hurt does NOT regenerate into Eccelson and that his existence is an echo from the timelock. In my head that's how the numbering stays consistant. That or the timelords gave him his next regeneration as a freebie.

 

The numbering stays consistent because the Warrior (the War Doctor, if you like) is not numbered as a Doctor. He doesn't use the title (first words being "Doctor no more"). Eccleston is the ninth Doctor, as that incarnation reclaimed the title and name.

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Well yeah sure, technically I guess, but the numbering is supposed to be for generations of that timelord not how many times they have used a "job title".

 

Driver, you're right. I guess it was the branches right at the edge of his elbow that made me think a blur had been applied. That bit looks like the edge of a straight cut or something like in a paint program. If you get me.

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The numbering used to be coincident with the incarnation of the Doctor, but not any more. The Ninth Doctor is just the tenth incarnation of that otherwise nameless Time Lord, the Tenth Doctor is the eleventh incarnation, the Eleventh Doctor is the twelfth incarnation, and the Capaldi Doctor will be the thirteenth incarnation. So he's gone through 12 lives as the Doctor and one life as the War Doctor or Warrior. Will Capaldi be the last Doctor, since he's the thirteenth incarnation? I doubt it, but I never expected to see the "end" of the Doctor's lives! Very exciting for me.

 

By the way, the Hurt "War Doctor" makes a single, otherwise unremarkable line in "School Reunion" make sense (or at least, alters the meaning). Sarah Jane, upon recognizing the Doctor, remarks "You've regenerated!" In reply, he says "Half a dozen times since we last met." Since she was last a companion of the Fourth Doctor, six regenerations would be the tenth. BUT, Sarah Jane met the Fifth Doctor in "The Five Doctors", so the Doctor could've meant half a dozen times since she last met the Fifth Doctor, which would be the eleventh incarnation of the Doctor, but the Tenth Doctor said it! Previously a minor discrepancy, it's now resolved! Hurray!

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If he wasn't a doctor why call him that, war or otherwise?

 

If he doesn't count why not just call him Jimmy or something? It's not like there isn't a precident of the Doctor having alternate forms that are not true Doctors-- the dream lord, the Valeyard, the Watcher, etc...

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"The Doctor" is the name he chose, representing his goals in life. You can call the incarnation portrayed by John Hurt "Jimmy" if you would like, I suppose. The Doctor doesn't consider his ninth incarnation a "Doctor", nor did the ninth incarnation consider himself a Doctor. So what's your problem? He's the same man, just not a Doctor. It's quite simple. What's bending your brain about this?

 

The Valeyard, the Watcher, the Dream Lord are not incarnations of the Doctor, they're just different aspects of him. The Dream Lord, specifically, was simply a manifestation within a dream of what the Doctor doesn't like about himself. I'm not sure why you would think the Warrior (or the War Doctor, or "Jimmy", whatever) would be like the Watcher (which didn't seem to have a truly independent existence of its own) or the Valeyard (which was some kind of distillation of the Doctor's dark side from "somewhere between his twelfth and final" incarnations). John Hurt counts as a regenerated incarnation of the Time Lord, while the Watcher, the Valeyard, and the Dream Lord do not.

 

It's really quite simple - John Hurt is playing the ninth regeneration of our particular Time Lord protagonist. He's just not counted as a Doctor because he rejected the name and probably the morality and restraint psychologically connected to the title. Think of him as the first Warrior rather than the ninth Doctor.

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Old news. That article is from July. What's your point? That he's referred to as the Doctor? What else are we going to call him? The character's name and the character's choice have always coincided before. Now we're seeing that the man and the name aren't the same thing. The Eighth Doctor despaired and chose to become a Warrior, allowing the ninth incarnation (not the ninth Doctor) to do what he did to end the Time War.

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You're awfully worked about this. Try not being a dick about it. I'm just offering up a fun theory and I won't cry if the simplest explanation, what you're describing, comes down the pike. Moffat likes to be twisty, so I'm thinking twisty. Just because I'm not saying you're right doesn't make me the moron you're talking down to. Differences of opinion are the point of discussion. It's cool that you've come back to post, but not if you're going to be rude about it.

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"Worked"? I thought you were the one that was worked up about this. Besides, who's being a dick? You threw a link to an ancient article up, without any explanation about how it fits into your "theory". Am I supposed to read your mind?

 

I'm holding on to my theory that John Hurt does NOT regenerate into Eccelson and that his existence is an echo from the timelock. In my head that's how the numbering stays consistant. That or the timelords gave him his next regeneration as a freebie.

This idea doesn't even make sense. "Echo from the time lock"? What does that mean? What's the point of it? Moffat's twist is that there was an incarnation between McGann's and Eccleston's Doctors. How much more of a twist is needed?

It's cool that you've come back to post, but not if you're going to be rude about it.

 

Rude? I've not been rude. Where do you think I was rude? I don't think you're a moron (you're projecting, apparently). I don't even know who you are.
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"So what's your problem?...It's quite simple...What's bending your brain about this?...It's really quite simple "

 

That reads as rude to me. Sorry if that's projecting.

 

I'll recap!

 

What you're saying is the simplest explanation, and admittedly the most likely. But for two reasons, I don't like it.

 

ONE, it goes against several references both in BBC marketing AND in-show continuity of the 3 Doctors since the relaunch mentioning which incarnation they are. It seems really weird to renumber them after years of saying which Doctor they are. I get your point, in that he was not the Doctor in his actions during the time war, so he doesn't count as a Doctor-- but I think that is a cop out, both in continuity and out. He was introduced onscreen as The Doctor, and The War Doctor, which tells me Matt Smith's explanation of him in the last episode is in a bit of denial. My point with bringing up the Valeyard and The Dream Lord was just that there is a precedent of different aspects of the Doctor's personality becoming manifest in some way and not being referred to as The Doctor, so why CALL him the Doctor? It;s not a big deal if I am wrong. If this is what they do, just say he doesn't count as "Doctor" will I care? Not if it is written well. But I will think it is bit of a cop out.

 

 

TWO, Moffat rarely goes with an easy explanation, he likes his timey wimey cleverness. So, you know, for fun, I tried to think of a theory that's as whacked out as something he would come up with. So my guess based on zero evidence is that McGann Doctor becomes War Doctor. War Doctor fights the time war, uses "the moment" to establish the timelock and ends the war by killing both races. Through some trickery, he escapes backwards through his own time stream, returning to the McGann Doctor body. It's before the war, he's outside the timelock, but he has memories of it. When he next regenerates, he becomes Eccelson instead without the Sisters of Karn to influence the change. So in essence, the War Doctor never existed as does not count as one of his regenerations. In Day of the Doctor, somehow the version of him inside the timelock, the War Doctor, escapes into his own apocryphal existence.

 

Just fun speculation on my part, nothing more.

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He was introduced as the Doctor, and the War Doctor, because we have no other moniker for him. He does have a Gallifreyan name, but we don't know what it is. Maybe it's Throckmorton Throttlebottom. So John Hurt is still playing Throckmorton Throttlebottom, as much as William Hartnell through Matt Smith were playing Throckmorton Throttlebottom. If the end of "The Name of the Doctor" had introduced John Hurt as "The Warrior", what would that have meant to the audience? Nothing. They needed to nail down firmly that John Hurt was an incarnation of the Doctor. Does that screw up the "numbering"? Yes, but only because we've never considered the Doctor might not always be a Doctor. It is a choice he makes. He can decide to not be the Doctor. The Eleventh Doctor said he would have to find a new name when he decided to kill the Star Whale in "The Beast Below", because he couldn't do it and still be considered the Doctor. Moffat screwed with our minds already by introducing a man that was the Doctor, but not a Doctor to be numbered. :shrug: Moffat's emphasizing that the Doctor is a choice the Time Lord makes, not a name per se.

 

As for the Eighth Doctor going back to "un-regenerate" into Eccleston's Ninth Doctor - that's screwy. Not Moffat screwy, not fun screwy, just fanon-nitpicking-the-Doctors-must-be-labeled-correctly-so-let's-introduce-a-reset-button screwy.

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You don't think so? Maybe you need to wind your theory a little tighter, so that the screwy is screwier. It's almost merely pedantic at this point! You can do better Tank (what the hell did you change your handle for? How the hell am I supposed to know who's who when y'all are changing names more often than you change underwear?)

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You don't think so? Maybe you need to wind your theory a little tighter, so that the screwy is screwier. It's almost merely pedantic at this point! You can do better Tank (what the hell did you change your handle for? How the hell am I supposed to know who's who when y'all are changing names more often than you change underwear?)

If moffat doesn't have to neither do I!

 

I'm the LAST person to go all superfan conspiracy theory. I know my idea is unlikely... I just like it.

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Moffat does write like a conspiracy driven fanboy, which is why it's humorous when he is amused at some of the ideas We come up with. With that said I think it's a stretch that a throw away line in a years old episode somehow is referencing this War Doctor anomoly... that's actually a great title; The War Doctor Anomoly. That should be a book or audioplay or whatev.

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Of course it's not referencing the Warrior, it's just serendipitous. The fact that any DW stories have even a little continuity at all is accidental. When the head of the show says that DW can't have discontinuities by virtue of the fact the main character travels through time and changes it occasionally, you know he doesn't worry at all about things making sense. Of course, that's why I like his stories. I love DW, but let's face it, hard sci-fi it's not.

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Well, anyway.

Just got back home to London from holidays and caught up on the Night of the Doctor. How brilliant to see Paul McGann back at last! I have been hoping for so long to see him in a series - I had posted on here a good while back that if the likes of Tennant or now Smith wanted a break from the role, rather than just regenerating again they could have revisited the 8th Doctor for a few adventures. But anyway, I was really happy to see him back and finally get a send off. All set up nicely for tomorrow's anniversary special!

 

Additionally, the specially made drama "An Adventure in Time and Space" was shown and having just watched it, I have to say that it was expertly made. David Bradley puts in a superb performance as William Hartnell. Really enjoyable, but the scenes where he is told that he will be replaced were heartbreaking. Great stuff!

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