Official Doctor Who New Series Discussion (spoilers)

[Tank]

From her POV though, how does she know his first kiss is her last without some extra knowledge?

[The Human Torch]

Just because she doesn't give spoilers, doesn't mean she won't find them out for herself if possible. If true, I'd find that to be very in her character too.

[UK Legend Killa]

From her POV though, how does she know his first kiss is her last without some extra knowledge?

As far as she is aware they are travelling in opposite directions (as she said in TIA). Although we know this may not be completely true it is to her, so any first of his is her last from her POV.

[Tank]

my head hurts...

 

the problem here is that at some point Matt Smith's doctor spends YEARS with River as his full time companion, and we're not likely to ever see that really, and they'll have to figure out how to do that in a few years when he hands the roll off.

 

Easy as putting in a gap somewhere... but will people be expecting to see it?

[The Human Torch]

I think they already put in the gap, or a gap they can use. It's two hundred years wide. That is also why I insist that River's perception is gold in this arc and that her shock that The Doctor hadn't done her yet was important. When have their timelines ever been straight as "she's going one way, he's another"?* They'd be little need to sync diaries if it was so straight. River's use of the term reverse is loose, IMO. It's a simple explanation to satisfy who she is talking to. Her reactions to events are paramount however. She has no reason to fake shock at Dead Doctor's death, that was genuine and unexpected. Her shock and questioning grilling after the kiss is genuine. Wibbly wobbly... time is fubared and only River has noticed. There is a chunk of interaction missing between River and The Doctor that shouldn't be.

 

*besides Library River calls for the Doctor. A Doctor she first expects to be hers or at least after hers... that's the reveal in that episode. It's a surprise that The Doctor that shows up is younger than hers... but obviously not a surprise that The Doctor shows up. Further proof, IMO, that River's perception in this new arc is gold. All of her reactions are telling us that **** ain't right. And she didn't realize it until after the kiss. The Doctor that kissed her should have been with her already and he hasn't. It's all right there. Plain as day.

[Tank]

Torchie, you need a chart or diagram cause I don't follow you at allllll

[pavonis]

The only thing that sticks out to me-- and remind me if I am wrong, but I swear that when River first saw Matt Smith she recognized him, but it still wasn't "her" Doctor that she had the relationship with. Now it seems as if it is, because she wouldn't buy that the Astronaut killed him if she had been with a later regeneration... right?

 

I'm not certain that River knows the order of the Doctor's various incarnations. We only know she has a "spotter's guide" of his various faces. We don't even know how many incarnations are listed in her guide.

[UK Legend Killa]

Yeah THT I'm sorry but your theory sounds compeltely off base to me. I see it in a completely different way!

 

Anywho, I really enjoyed this latest episode. Nice old fashioned adventuring that took some good twists and turns and I just sat back and enjoyed it. Hugh Bonneville was great as the captain. Liked him a lot

[Ryn]

Yeah, this show attracts some great performers. No role seems small. Bonneville's is no exception.

 

Gaiman's episode is next.

[The Human Torch]

1. The Library. River calls The Doctor and The 10th Doctor shows up. River thought The 10th Doctor was older than her Doctor, a later regeneration, until she noticed how young The 10th Doctor's eyes were.

 

2. The Astronaut, presumably Astro-Girl (but not necessarily), kills The 11th Doctor during regeneration. River is utterly shocked by this turn of events. She explains that is it, he's dead. Then notes with surprise The Dead Doctor is 200 years older than Amy's Doctor.

 

3. The Kiss. In response to The 11th Doctor's (Amy's Doctor, timeline wise) recoil at being kissed, River explicitly states, paraphrased, "it's not like we haven't done that before." The 11th Doctor then insists it's their first time. Following that expressive looks of horror and confusion fly across River's face.

 

Time is ****ed up.

 

P.S. The Pirate episode was a neat filler and possibly introduced a new set of reoccuring characters to the franchise. And I'm looking forward to Gaiman's episode!

[UK Legend Killa]

I agree that The Doctor shouldn't die when he does IF his time stream is linear (which it obviously isn't). River knows he can't die unless he has been to see her when she is younger, but it seems like this Doctor has been through all his adventures with River and has now jumped backwards in time to die with his friends (and to set events in motion)

 

Still completely disagreeing with you on the kiss. I kind of get whee you're coming from but I still say it's because River knows that her ride is over. He hasn't kissed her yet from his POV and thus soon their relationship will be over. Thats what scares her most

[The Human Torch]

I just watched the key parts of the episode again.

 

You're missing that River never oversteps her bounds with the Doctor, due to spoilers. She teases and she did let on she new something important about him (most of us believe it's his real name), but she is close to her vest about spoilers. She's never initiated physical expressions of her love until this episode. The Doctor drops her off at the prison, he asks her to skip out on the prison thing and just come with her. She declines. He walks away saying see ya later. She protests saying what the hell. He walks back, wondering what gives. RIVER THEN THINKS HE'S TEASING HER. And so she leans in and kisses him. Bam. The Doctor recoils and River is shocked. After a moment the Doctor happily goes to the Tardis, River remains in the prison gobsmacked and then makes a comment about a last time.

 

Time is ****ed. The 11th Doctor, Amy's Doctor timeline wise, was supposed to have done River by that point. Not the 200 Years Older Doctor, but Amy's Doctor was supposed to have spent time with River.

 

If this is the last time River meets Amy's Doctor (because she goes to the Library next and dies) then time is ****ed. River's lived thru boinking the Doctor already. From River's POV Amy's Doctor was supposed to have boinked her, but hasn't. River has watched The Doctor die, but yet expects him (younger, her's or a later version) to show up at the Library (her supposed next destination).

 

This all can't be true, even with random meetings and especially not with straight reverse order meetings. The only answer is that time is ****ed and we're being told that thru River.

[UK Legend Killa]

Can't argue with you logic, completely disagree with your conclusion. I don't think the Doctor should have been adventuring with River yet. He's exactly where he should be in that regard.

 

This isn't the last time River meets the Doctor. We've seen the next time she meet him, at The Pandorica. Then it's the Angels, then The Library.

 

I believe the next time we see River her and the Doctor will be a lot closer and at the middle point of their relationship. This is the reason River is confused when he doesn't kiss her goodbye, to her he has kissed her loads of times and will continue to do so until the end of their relationship from her POV.

 

She isn't shocked because he is supposed to have kissed her, from her POV she doesn't know when he first kissed her. Her diary is only of her past, not of her future. She doesn't know what will happen to the Doctor at any of their meetings as they happen. She is shocked because in her mind she expects there to be so many more times when he does kiss her, their relationship to continue on. Now she realises she is reaching the tail end of it.

 

Another note about River, anybody else starting to think that maybe she's in prison on more of a self-imposed thing. Not that she committed herself or anything, but that she wants to stay in prison as pennance for what she did? She doesn't act like a normal prisoner

[Ryn]

The guards have kinda freaked out before when she's escaped, right? But I do agree that she's in there more on her own accord -- like she's being compliant with whatever sentence they've given her.

 

I'm wondering if the nurse (?) with the eyepatch is monitoring Amy under anesthesia. But does that mean we're seeing these episodes, at least her involvement in them, as dreams or memories?

[UK Legend Killa]

Yeah the eyepatch woman mystery is very odd.

 

Her words seems almost like a mid-wife, so maybe they occur as Amy is flashing back to her past under some sort of anaethesia. Theres not really enough information to say yet. Was going to suggest something Silence related but the first one occurred before her abduction

 

I hope they don't end it all as some sort of dream and everything is back to normal. That would be gaaay

[Ryn]

That was fun!

 

It really felt like a fan's love letter. Solid performances throughout, especially from the show's guests Suranne Jones and Michael Sheen.

 

A nice review here.

[UK Legend Killa]

Jesus christ that was brilliant.

 

If you ever want to convert somebody to Doctor Who, make them watch that episode.

 

Again rory was a stand-out performance and Idris and The Doc together were immense. A great range from Matt Smith this episode to

[monkeygirl]

I haven't watched The Doctor's Wife yet, I'm psyched now! I'm not a fan of the pirates episode. Too dark...I couldn't see a damn thing. I DID like Amy going all swashbuckler, though. But back to the openers;

 

I think the girl is Amy and Rory's daughter, perhaps from an alternate timline and since time if ****ed, the TARDIS is monitoring both Amys, which would explain why it can't decide if she's pregnant or not.

 

I think somehow dreaming is involved with eye-patch lady. She seems to be monitoring someone in a room, she's clearly not aware of Amy of anyone else speaking to her. She first said "no, she's just sleeping, I think she's dreaming" or something like that. In the first episode all sorts of referencdes to dreaming were made...Canton Delaware says "I was sitting in a bar drinking, I don't suppose I still am and this is just s dream" or something like that to Amy...and many other references through both episodes about telling the difference between dreams and reality.

 

AND ALSO: I think Dr. Who killed himself on that lake shore. I can't work out how or what it's mean but I think the whole thing about him sending the TARDIS-blue envelopes to everyone, including himself (unbeknownst to himself) was a clue.

[Ryn]

Again rory was a stand-out performance

Definitely, considering Rory wasn't in Gaiman's original draft. (Remember, this got bumped st the end of last season and Rory hadn't re-appeared yet.)

 

Man... if only Gaiman took on a role with the show in a Douglas Adams-like capacity.

[The Human Torch]

MG, your idea about The Doctor killing himself fascinates me.

[Tank]

But the Doctor doesn't like guns

[The Human Torch]

Just finished watching the episode, it was totally fantastic.

 

Here's a neat thing too; It was very close to an idea Tank and I talked about a year or more ago that combined ideas from DW and the Star Trek TOS episode called The Companion (the one with Zefram Cochrane).

 

Anyway, this was probably one of my favorite episodes to date. My only wish is that the archived control room was older... Maybe from around the 4th or 5th doctor. Either that or it would have been keen to make the temp control room escape ship look like it was from that era.

 

 

But the Doctor doesn't like guns

 

True, but he doesn't mind doing things he feels are necessary.

[UK Legend Killa]

The 'escape' console was a design by a competition winner from a kids show.

 

They showed in in detail on DW:Confidential aftwewards. It was cool.

[The Human Torch]

In that case that's really neat.

[Ryn]

The 'escape' console was a design by a competition winner from a kids show.

 

They showed in in detail on DW:Confidential aftwewards. It was cool.

That's great! I'll have to check out that DWC. To add, that was a really cool effect as it travelled. I loved the electrical crackling too.

 

I've watched this episode multiple times already. (I watched it twice, back-to-back, the first time.) The only change I would have made is showing an exterior of the TARDIS and seeing her expelling House, with his form dissipating into space. Otherwise, the cynic in me thinks he still may be contained somewhere in the TARDIS.