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The Next Star Wars


69 replies to this topic

#26
Tank

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It's hard for me to weigh in on this discussion since my opinion of what Star Wars is goes beyond a series of films. To me, it is a massive saga spanning many formats. It's very hard to follow something like that up, though I believe Mass Effect could potentially do the same thing. They just need to expand at a faster rate, incorporate more things, both visual and written.

COULD have been-- but Andromeda killed the franchise.



#27
Lord Darth Hunter

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I know I'm taking this off topic but in trawling through by Nightly back catalogue I found this interesting comment from ShadowDog in this thread https://nightly.net/...heavy-spoilers/ back in 2007:
 
One other thing for now. I guess I'm going to have to continue to wait for the day when someone writing a long running franchise series has the GUTS to kill off one of the big three. So far no one has. Han, Luke, and Leia all live. Buffy, Xander, and Willow all live. And now Ron, Hermione, and Harry all live. Whatever. rolleyes.gif For this to really have the resonance it needed, either Ron or Hermione had to go. Just my opinion of course. Hopefully, within my lifetime, someone will have some guts.
 
 
Hey ShadowDog, do Han and Luke dying (and Leia's inevitable death) count or will you want to see one of the new "big three" die in Ep IX?

To piggy back on this, a friend of mine and I once discussed something similar, a twist on the "one-of-the-three-needed-to-die" theory. He posited, what if one of the three turned and joined Voldemort? Would it have that kind of pop cultural resonance that you are referring to? Especially what if it was Harry? As preposterous as that may sound to Potter fans, wasn't Anakin turning to the dark side and joining the Sith supposed to have the same meaning as if Harry had joined Voldemort? Naturally Anakin's turn could never have that same resonance because we already knew it would happen going into the PT. But another franchise such as Harry Potter...to have the guts to do something like that...

#28
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Voldemort was already Anakin. Harry is Luke. Excluding familial ties of course and also pretending the Prequels dont exist because all you need to ever know about Anakin was in the originals... stupid episode numbers, dumbest thing GL ever did was put episode numbers on them, in doing so he put handcuffs on himself. Wait. What. Anyway.

#29
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It's way too late to keep bemoaning the Prequels. They happened there's a storyline that is canon. Unlike Anakin, Voldemort showed very early signs that he was headed for the Dark side and there was never any indication that he would be redeemed. That was Snape's role.  Harry turning was never going to happen but....

 

Spoilers ahead for those who have never read The Cursed Child screenplay:

 

 

 

 

The Cursed Child flirts with Harry's son turning to the dark side.


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#30
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I will bemoan whatever I want for however long I want as long as I entertain myself doing it, thank you, good sir. ;-)

But yes, youre right, the Prequels exist etc. etc. XD

#31
Lord Darth Hunter

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My point wasn't to compare the PT to Harry Potter per se. Djo and ShadowDog questioned whether a studio "would have the guts" to kill one of the big three for its tentpole franchise. Lucas didn't kill one of the big three in the OT. Rowling didn't in Harry Potter. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Twilight, the list goes on. Would Disney be willing to now in the ST? And would doing so have given any of these franchises more resonance? Rose saving Finn in TLJ has already been criticized by quite a few who felt his character arc was complete and his sacrifice would've added weight to the film. So I thought, what if instead of killing one of them off, what if he/she turned? I recall a few conversations in this forum before TLJ was released on whether Rey should turn to the dark side, the impact it would have on the franchise (a type of ESB holy spit moment) and whether Disney would be willing to pull something like that off.

#32
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I will bemoan whatever I want for however long I want as long as I entertain myself doing it, thank you, good sir. ;-)

But yes, youre right, the Prequels exist etc. etc. XD

Bemoan away i suppose as long as you acknowledge the existence of the Prequels. And it's Ma'am to you young man ;)

 

Lord Darth Hunter I don't think Disney are ready to take Star wars  down that path so it may be up to "The Next Star Wars" to take that step.


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#33
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I wish I could say first hand, but I can see from a cultural, movie and book standpoint Harry Potter being the "next Star Wars" in that way.   I never read the books, and have only seen part of the first movie, and I am vaguely aware that there is a prequel movie.  But it is a huge franchise, and doesn't Disney own the rights to it for Disneyland or something?

 

When it comes to movies only, however, I think there is a great comparison with Peter Jackson's LOTR and Hobbit movies.   The first 3 LOTR were awesome and mostly hold up for me.  So great, that watching them, then watching the PT Star Wars movies made me look at the PT, and see their flaws.    Then, the Hobbit movies came out 10 years later.  The first, Unexpected Journey, was actually very enjoyable for me, and full of promise in the same way as Fellowship was for LOTR.  Now I know some scenes were added, but the didn't bother me too much.  But the other two movies were an utter mess, chiefly due to all the added story line that had nothing to do with the book, and was just made up to stretch a book that is barely 200 pages to 3 movies.  Also, like the PT before it, it seemed like these movies were Jackson's playground to experiment with higher resolution and new CGI techniques, and some scenes exist simply because there was new technology to create them, though there was no other good reason.  So, like Star Wars, the Hobbit is basically its PT.



#34
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I will bemoan whatever I want for however long I want as long as I entertain myself doing it, thank you, good sir. ;-)

But yes, youre right, the Prequels exist etc. etc. XD

Bemoan away i suppose as long as you acknowledge the existence of the Prequels. And it's Ma'am to you young man ;)
 

I had no idea. My apologies. :-)

#35
Mara Jade Skywalker

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His character is pointless, meaningless, superfluous and other ssss so he could die in the next film anyway.

The only good thing to come from Poe is the Auto-Correct meme. Okay, no thats not true... the Bro meme is good too. Okay, no wrong again... the Can You Fly a Tie-Fighter meme is great too.


Every word you just said is wrong.
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#36
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The thing about anything being the next Star Wars is it has to start with a bang. The first Star Wars movie was a huge hit in 1977 and became a cultural touchstone. If there had never been another Star Wars product (movie, novel, holiday special, etc.), it would still be a thing. It was a cultural touchstone that hit everyone: kids, teenagers, parents, angry loners...
So Mass Effect is not that, LOTR is not that, MCU is not that (really no movie franchise built on an intellectual property is, because the other thing about Star Wars was that it was an original story).

Harry Potter is probably the closest thing weve had. The books were HUGE and Harry Potter became a household name, even before the movies came along. It does seem to have faded a bit, but I dont think that necessarily disqualifies it. Star Wars faded too in the 80s and early 90s until the SEs were released. Harry Potter could make a comeback someday.

However its a totally different landscape now - it seems like nothing can fade from public consciousness for any amount of time. Hollywood is such a machine for churning this stuff out and squeezing every last dime out of anything. The nostalgia factor has kind of been negated. The Harry Potter world is still churning stuff out so its more likely to get completed burned out than to lie fallow for ten years and then come back stronger than ever by capturing a new generation and bringing back the original fanbase like Star Wars did.

#37
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His character is pointless, meaningless, superfluous and other ssss so he could die in the next film anyway.

The only good thing to come from Poe is the Auto-Correct meme. Okay, no thats not true... the Bro meme is good too. Okay, no wrong again... the Can You Fly a Tie-Fighter meme is great too.


Every word you just said is wrong.

Actually there are fifty plus words and only one of them is wrong.

#38
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His character is pointless, meaningless, superfluous and other ssss so he could die in the next film anyway.

The only good thing to come from Poe is the Auto-Correct meme. Okay, no thats not true... the Bro meme is good too. Okay, no wrong again... the Can You Fly a Tie-Fighter meme is great too.

Every word you just said is wrong.
Actually there are fifty plus words and only one of them is wrong.
TLJ is the film I found Poe of any actual importance, and the only film I found him particularly likeable in. So I'm with Mara on this one. His failures and gung-ho attitude which lead to his failures were the whole point. To paraphrase Yoda, the greatest of teachers is failure. The whole lesson of TLJ is of learning from failure and shedding past mistakes. So in that way Poe's character arc was thematically central and totally unified with the film as a whole. I don't get the beef.

Sorry to derail the thread

Edited by Odine, 31 December 2017 - 09:42 AM.


#39
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I didnt like the direction Poe went in TLJ. Sure, Poe-learns-to-be-a-better-leader-through-his-failures seems to be a quality arc, but it betrays the character introduced to us in TFA: a highly-trusted operative, ace pilot, and commander in the fleet. Thats a guy who ignores orders and makes bone-headed, rash decisions?

Why not flip Finn and Poes roles? Finn could be the guy screwing up and learning to follow orders in The Resistance/Rebellion and emerging as a leader. Poe could be the guy who goes off on the seemingly-critical mission. Wouldnt he be the better choice? I forget why Finn went...because it was his and Roses idea? Besides then you get more Poe and BB8 time. Theyre supposed to be such buddies, but we hardly see them together onscreen.

#40
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I wish I could say first hand, but I can see from a cultural, movie and book standpoint Harry Potter being the "next Star Wars" in that way.   I never read the books, and have only seen part of the first movie, and I am vaguely aware that there is a prequel movie.  But it is a huge franchise, and doesn't Disney own the rights to it for Disneyland or something?

Universal Studios has that license. Both the Hollywood and Florida parks have a huge Harry Potter land.

Star Wars is one of those phenomena that can never be duplicated. The conditions have to be absolutely right for it to happen, and because it's a once-in-lifetime event that changes everything, naturally those conditions don't keep repeating. There will never be another Beatles. There will never be another Star Wars. Harry Potter has come the closest. It's to SW what The Rolling Stones were to The Beatles.

#41
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I didnt like the direction Poe went in TLJ. Sure, Poe-learns-to-be-a-better-leader-through-his-failures seems to be a quality arc, but it betrays the character introduced to us in TFA: a highly-trusted operative, ace pilot, and commander in the fleet. Thats a guy who ignores orders and makes bone-headed, rash decisions?

Why not flip Finn and Poes roles? Finn could be the guy screwing up and learning to follow orders in The Resistance/Rebellion and emerging as a leader. Poe could be the guy who goes off on the seemingly-critical mission. Wouldnt he be the better choice? I forget why Finn went...because it was his and Roses idea? Besides then you get more Poe and BB8 time. Theyre supposed to be such buddies, but we hardly see them together onscreen.

 

The whole thing is a rejection of the "1 in a million shot" plans that usually work in Star Wars and other movies of this type. Think about ROTJ, a small group of guys is supposed to sneak and destroy an Imperial installation then on top of that the fleet is going to time their arrival perfectly and destroy another Death Star. It's an unlikely plan to work. This movie flips all that. Destroy a dreadnaught? Ok, great it hurt the good guys more than the bad guys. Send Finn and Poe on some hair brained scheme, not only does it fail but it leads to the actual good plan that Holdo has failing. These 1 in a million plans don't work, there is no asteroid field to hide in this time. 



#42
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Lets get one thing clear, nobody had a good plan in The Last Jedi.

#43
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Yeah, that's probably true. Makes sense though, the Resistance has been pushed to the point where there really are no good plans or options. 



#44
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Yeah what was Holdos/Leias good plan? Hole up on Crait and hope for someone to hear their distress call? Who would that be? Someone who can blow the First Order out of the sky? I think there was a bit of smoke and mirrors in the script there. i.e. mock the one-in-a-million plan and hope the audience doesnt notice the other plan was no good either.

#45
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Oh and I remember now, Finn was supposed to be the guy because he knew his way around Snokes ship to disable the whatchiwhoosit.

#46
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And I dont think the ROTJ plan is that bad. You want to knock out the shield generator in order to have any chance at taking out the Death Star. You cant send an entire army down there without attracting attention so you send a small strike force of some of your best. Its not that kooky.

I might question why you send two of your best pilots, including the guy who used The Force to blow up the last DS. Wouldnt you want him in an X-Wing?

I might also question, if youve got an Imperial Shuttle packed with enough explosives to take out the shield generator, why you dont simply crash the shuttle into it. If the Alliance is too warm and fuzzy to sacrifice a guy, send a paratrooper.

Of course the answer to all that is, for the story to work. My opinion of TLJ isnt fully formed, but I wonder if Rian Johnson could have used a bit more of that one-in-a-million magic in his story.

#47
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Also, the whole thing kinda makes no sense. People complain in this movie that The First Order should have used hyper space to get in front of the Resistance. But isn't the Emperor just as dumb? I mean I get  giving the Alliance info to draw them into battle but why would you give them real info? Why give them the real readouts of Death Star or the real location of the shield generator? Why not give them false info so when they show up everything is different than they expect and they have no chance at all?

 

And you guys are right, the Resistance plan isn't "good" in the sense that it will lead to some kind of victory. At this point though the situation is so desperate for the Resistance they are simply trying to survive from day to day. They have no expectation of winning the war at this point, they just want to stick around. 



#48
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All he (Rian) needed to do was trim some fat from the beginning/middle of the film. Instead it wobbled around not doing much of any significance for too long.
Finns character is more of a waste of space than Poe IMO.

As far as what will be the next Star Wars... I don't think we will ever see anything cinematic that big. I think the next biggest cultural phenomenon will be a game. And it will blow anything cinema can do out of the water. Just gotta wait for a couple generations to drop off the perch and that'll be the reality.

Edited by Odine, 31 December 2017 - 11:58 AM.


#49
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As far as what will be the next Star Wars... I don't think we will ever see anything cinematic that big. I think the next biggest cultural phenomenon will be a game. And it will blow anything cinema can do out of the water. Just gotta wait for a couple generations to drop off the perch and that'll be the reality.

That's what I'm thinking. I completely immersive and interactive experience.



#50
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I had thought of Minecraft. Its pretty huge. But for the most part it has only grabbed a single generation. Give it time maybe, but then by my criterion its still not Star Wars in that it didnt grab multiple generations at its inception.



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