Jump to content

Welcome to Nightly.Net
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

anti americanism. really pisses me off.


158 replies to this topic

#76
EmperorTarkin

EmperorTarkin

    Member

  • Members
  • 85 posts
[quote] Obsidian:

I reluctantly agree with EmperorTarkin about the failure of VietNam lying with the politicians, not the people. However, to claim altruistic motivations in the war is naiviety. No nation on earth does anything unless it helps themselves. Self interest isn't neccesarily a bad motivating factor, but it is important in every governmental action. Vietnam was about asserting American power in the world, and protecting our interests. [/quote]It was not about "asserting American power" in the purely selfish fashion I think you're alluding to. As part of a proxy war in the greater Cold War, it was every bit about preserving Western-style freedom. To characterize America's involvement as a gangster-like attempt at getting more stuff is to ignore the core reality of why we were fighting the Cold War in the first place. Self-preservation? You bet: preservation of the freedoms that define the West.

quote:



To say, however, that America is innocent of any war crimes is a lie. The fire-bombing of Dresden by the US during WWII was a war crime by any definition, as too could be considered the use of atomic bombs on civilian cities.[/quote]Incorrect. It is my understanding that Dresden was a production center for Germany. At that late stage in the war, I doubt the German people had no clue as to what they were fighting for.

As for the atomic bombings, they prevented the need for an invasion of Japan, which surely would have killed multiple times the numbers the bombing did, if the Japanese's suicidal resistance for the tiny Okinawa islands is any indicator - just imagine how much worse it may have been for the actual main islands.

And further, you try to take a neutral stance between the reasons both sides were at war with one another. There really are evil aggressors in the world, and I don't know why anyone wouldn't call a spade a spade. Japan was every bit the evil aggressor then, and with popular support to boot.

Getting sadistic pleasure from the dropping of the bombs would be one thing, but seeing it as a way to end the bloodshed is as altruistic as one can get while at war.

quote:

Had such actions been taken by the Axis powers, they would have been tried for them. However, given that the Allies won the war, actions such as those I mentioned, as well as some of the Soviet Union's atrocities during the war, went unpunished.[/quote]I agree that we should have taken a harder stance against the USSR after the war - hey, blame FDR for buddying up to Commies - but you still try to draw up an undeservedly 'neutral' view of the two sides (as if man's selfish nature means we cancel each others' wrong-doings out, and that true attempts at some kind of good can't be made and championed?)

quote:

I want to add that I do appreciate the principles America was founded on. I do not appreciate what America has become, how some of those principles have been perverted. [/quote]If America is far from the principles it was founded on, it is because of the retreat from Judeo-Christian values to Modern Liberal theorizing. One of the most damaging aspects has been the idea that one culture is really no worse than the other, which, ironically, seems to produce a desire to make knee-jerk condemnations of America at every turn.

#77
Obsidian

Obsidian

    Kill Humanity

  • Members
  • 7,343 posts

EmperorTarkin:
As for the atomic bombings, they prevented the need for an invasion of Japan, which surely would have killed multiple times the numbers the bombing did, if the Japanese's suicidal resistance for the tiny Okinawa islands is any indicator - just imagine how much worse it may have been for the actual main islands.

Most historians believe that is bull****. A lot of Generals in the day, like Eisenhower, believed that the bombs were not needed. It is highly unlikely that Japan could not have continued fighter longer than a few months without irreperably destroying their economy. No 'invasion' would have been required, and many in the US knew it.

Furthermore, as I recall the Japanese government had already offered to surrender, under the single condition they get to keep their emperor. The US refused and dropped the bombs. Then, Japan surrendered and we let them keep their emperor anyway.

What kind of sense does that make?

As to America's involvment in VietNam: By that point America had become a superpower. Every international action since then has been about maintaining that superpower status. Even in helping other nations we gain something from them.

I make no value judgements as to whether such actions are right or wrong, but I won't try to wrap myself in a comforting blanket of altruism, just to feel better. Self-interest is the strongest motivating factor for every human being. And for all governments.

#78
devanshoom

devanshoom

    Member

  • Members
  • 22 posts
Wow....some wise words there.

#79
Morgan Freebase

Morgan Freebase

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,903 posts

quote:


dev:

Wow....some wise words there.

Indeed, it was very activating.

#80
devanshoom

devanshoom

    Member

  • Members
  • 22 posts
You like that word, eh? Or are you taking the piss? hehe

#81
Fat_Gut_Strut

Fat_Gut_Strut

    Member

  • Members
  • 526 posts
What the **** does preserving western freedom and democracy have to do with south EAST ASIA?????

The 'communist threat' of those times was all hype. But people believed that ****, and the whole domino theory, but it was all avoidable. I mean, the US could have saved a lot of lives and money and just let the North Vietnamese take the South and become a Communist nation... which they pretty much did anyway eventually after a lot of death. Would it have seriously affected the US or the world?? No way. Where do you get off?

I mean, America holds itself to have all these righteous stances like anti Communism or whatever, and then beats its chest like an angry gorilla proclaiming that it will fight the evils of Communism where ever it lies like the self righteous arrogant prick that it is.

But its not the people, its the Government and its righteous image that it puts on America. I think the problem is that (Like ES said) America says all these altruistic things like fighting for freedom or whatever, but is then forced to back these BS statements up with actions which invariably turn out as a **** up. I mean Iraq is the perfect example. They were probably better off WITH Saddam, than what the poor bastards have got now.

America's military is also so rediculously over armed, but the average soldier doesnt seem to understand ****. I mean, its like... you give a 3 year old a Bazooka, show him how to hold it and point it in the right direction, tell him to gaurd a cookie jar or something, and there you have the American miliatary right there. Retards with BIG ****ing guns.

I mean, Vietnam was the same... the average age of a soldier was 19. Not only that but the term of service was only one year. So, your fighting a ****ed up war out of your element, and constantly sending in young, inexperienced troopps in, and taking out soldiers after a year just when they have started to get a hang of things. I mean, those soldiers are bound to be stoked that they are leaving after a year, but in terms of fighting a war... wouldnt it help to have trained experienced Veterans in rather than some poor kid who only lost his virginity a few years back?????

#82
Bora.Horza

Bora.Horza

    Member

  • Members
  • 3,063 posts
Wasn't that because it wasn't officially a war or something?

#83
Jedi Rebel

Jedi Rebel

    PEACE

  • Members
  • 1,795 posts
What gets me is that when people want to start a new life in the USA, they should already know that they are coming to a new country with a differnet culture. But some of them, NOT ALL, get here, something will offend them, and they raise hell, and then we have to compromise our rights and privileges to suit them. Fair? Just? No, not at all, not in a society that focuses on being politically correct. And although this is politically correct, it is most decidedly morally incorrect.

#84
Master Yo-Gurt

Master Yo-Gurt

    Holy Cow!

  • Members
  • 22,444 posts
Love the country. Not necessarily the people

#85
Sigh Snootles

Sigh Snootles

    now with increased kung fu grip!!!

  • Members
  • 12,160 posts
for me, it's love the country, love the people, but that government...

laugh

#86
foadisto

foadisto

    anarcho-perv

  • Member
  • 3,596 posts

devanshoom:
There is also the fact that global westernization is killing cultural diversity.

Prove it.

#87
RavEMasteR

RavEMasteR

    Member

  • Members
  • 4,034 posts

foadisto:

foadisto:
There is also the fact that global westernization is killing cultural diversity.

Prove it.

Chinese values such as heroism and patriotism has literally gone down the drain.

It's all about money and business with the West now.

That's the first evidence.

#88
EwoksSuck

EwoksSuck

    Til All Are One

  • Members
  • 31,462 posts

Sigh Snootles:
for me, it's love the country, love the people, but that government...

laugh

At least half of us here in the States feel that way too. laugh

#89
tsquare

tsquare

    Member

  • Members
  • 7,888 posts

EwoksSuck:
At least half of us here in the States feel that way too.

Less than half...or have you forgoten you lost the last election as well as the one before that?

#90
Pong Messiah

Pong Messiah

    don't want to be buried in a pet cemetery

  • Member
  • 19,360 posts
I dunno, tsquare -- I hate the government but voted for Bush anyway, as he wasn't quite as distasteful to me as Kerry. I know I'm not alone in that sentiment...

It easily could be over half!

#91
EwoksSuck

EwoksSuck

    Til All Are One

  • Members
  • 31,462 posts

tsquare:

tsquare:
At least half of us here in the States feel that way too.

Less than half...or have you forgoten you lost the last election as well as the one before that?

Only about half the eligible population votes in total. The percentage of eligible voters who voted in 2004 was 53.1%. Which means only about 25% of the country voted for Bush.

#92
DESTINY

DESTINY

    It is your...

  • Members
  • 10,391 posts
OK, I've read enough anti-American posts, and not just in this thread either.... It's enough for me to vomit.

My thoughts....

We all live in a time period where "information" is just as easy to get as a 15 year old does buying a pack of cigarettes at a local convenience store. In most cases the information is just as bad as cigarettes itself. Someone will hear something, post it on the Internet, next thing we know it's all over the world. IMO, majority of news regarding politics is far from the actual event that has really occurred. Point taking, and perfect example, is UKLK view of the Vietnam War... Still not sure haw he came up with that information, seeing that the war has been over for more than double his life time... shrug

Sure, if we keep reading about negativity that has happen or what people think has happen, then sure it will paint a poor picture. But, the same thing could be said for a catastrophe or a pleasant event. Case in point 9/11... When this event took place, it was world news within minutes of the incident All of the sudden, "the world" felt sorry for the people and American's were the popular, well liked people. People, who always criticize US before, were now actually on their side being pro America.

For those of you who has never visited the United States or even met an American before, has absolutely no business in making any kind of presumptions. Myself, I visit the US regularly for both pleasure and business and I have to say that the people are hospitable and friendly. I can also say the exact same thing when I meet an American outside the US, like in Canada or on vacation, either in Europe or the Caribbean. Lot's of European and Canadians for that matter has an EXTREEMLY bad thought on Americans outside their country, being arrogant, snobby and in some cases stupid. Well, I have traveled around the world, met many Americans, and they were far from that. I can also add that American's in some places get treated very badly when visiting other countries. One example of this, is when I was traveling through Europe and I was in Finland, I think... anyway, I met an American guy when I was in Russia and we just hung out for the jurisdiction of our European tour. When we reached Finland, we found a BaB. There was like 2 people in there with room for at lease 6 more people. The Couple let me stay but said there was no room for "The American" (quote from that b*tch). Needless to say, we didn't stay there and was forced to camp out that cold night....

Getting back on topic....

The United States is one, if not the most powerful Government in the world. Being that they are the largest targets for media critics. If Canada was even 1/4 as powerful as the US, I'm sure the world would be full of anti-Canadian... Perhaps there are already anti-Canadian's shrug The same could be said for any other country, (ie, UK, Germany, France, etc...).

Well, that's my vent... I'm just too lazy to post more.... Never the less, I AM CANADIAN but, I do love the US too... peace!

#93
Ryn

Ryn

    Moonshadow

  • Moderators
  • 28,559 posts

EwoksSuck:

EwoksSuck:

EwoksSuck:
At least half of us here in the States feel that way too.

Less than half...or have you forgoten you lost the last election as well as the one before that?

Only about half the eligible population votes in total. The percentage of eligible voters who voted in 2004 was 53.1%. Which means only about 25% of the country voted for Bush.

thumbs_u

#94
Obi-Wan Cannoli

Obi-Wan Cannoli

    rogue scholar

  • Members
  • 6,283 posts

Ryn:

Ryn:

Ryn:

Ryn:
At least half of us here in the States feel that way too.

Less than half...or have you forgoten you lost the last election as well as the one before that?

Only about half the eligible population votes in total. The percentage of eligible voters who voted in 2004 was 53.1%. Which means only about 25% of the country voted for Bush.

thumbs_u

Damn straight. And let's not forget that in "the one before that," Al Gore actually won the popular vote, which means more Americans voted for him than GWB.

#95
foadisto

foadisto

    anarcho-perv

  • Member
  • 3,596 posts

RavEMasteR:
Chinese values such as heroism and patriotism has literally gone down the drain.

It's all about money and business with the West now.

That's the first evidence.

For the Jews of the Orient, it has always been about money and business. That's why the overseas Chinese are known as the Jews of the Orient, you silly Jew!

#96
Jedi Rebel

Jedi Rebel

    PEACE

  • Members
  • 1,795 posts
Everything revolved around 1 thing. Love of Money.

Regardless of what it is or where it is or who it is, EVERYTHING boils right down to greed.

Gas for instance does not have to be as expesive as it is. It's greed pure and simple, and the expense of it ultimatley it gets passed down to guy who owns the gas station and then the person at the pump.

may be totally off topic, but well, here it is.

#97
Captain Parkinglot

Captain Parkinglot

    Member

  • Members
  • 127 posts

Jedi Rebel:
Everything revolve[s] around 1 thing. Love of Money.

You are wronger than the wrongest guy in this wrongididily-widily world, bruv.

Jedi Rebel:
Regardless of what it is or where it is or who it is, EVERYTHING boils right down to greed.

How are you defining 'greed'?

Jedi Rebel:
Gas for instance does not have to be as expesive as it is. It's greed pure and simple,[. . .]

Prove it.

#98
Sigh Snootles

Sigh Snootles

    now with increased kung fu grip!!!

  • Members
  • 12,160 posts

Captain Parkinglot:
You are wronger than the wrongest guy in this wrongididily-widily world.

i just wanted to repeat that one cause i like the way it sounds. cool.

#99
Fat_Gut_Strut

Fat_Gut_Strut

    Member

  • Members
  • 526 posts
DEST... I have had the experience of meeting some Americans. By in large yes they are friendly people, but I also found them (some not all) to be ignorant, loud and obnoxious. Mind you they were from calafornia.
And sure, people dislike them, because they are the biggest super power yeah thats going to happen to anyone. However that doesnt take away from the fact much of it is justified. Just because people are anti- american government doesnt mean that they hate all the people and are misinformed.
Yes, the media does twist **** around. But there is also BULK media coverage portraying America in unjust POSITIVe light. It works both ways.

As for westernisation of the world eliminating cultural differnces or identities I would have thought that was kind of obviously true. I mean it is not destroying every culture quickly its a gradual process but you dont need to look far to see the results.

#100
Acrisius

Acrisius

    Member

  • Members
  • 60 posts
Is it any wonder people are so anti-American? Team America: World Police was supposed to be a comedy, but the sad thing is that it came across more like a documentary. With puppets.



Reply to this topic