The Choc Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 It seems pretty obvious that Ren is going to be obsessed with Vader and based on Abrams comments in Empire that the whole First Order will consider himself some kind of martyr/symbol/idol. What's interesting here is that I'm guessing they will know his entire story, that in the end his love for his son made him turn on the Emperor. What I'm getting at is how this last act of Vaders life will be looked upon by Kylo Ren. Now for the sake of argument let's say that Ren is the son of Han and Leia, certainly not official but in my opinion it is likely. Now let's say that Ren idolizes Vader, who would be his grandfather. I'm guessing that Vader saving Luke would not be looked upon as a positive thing by Ren/The First Order. So Ren looks at Vader as a near perfect role model, except for the very last moments of his life when he finally showed weakness and let his feelings for his son cloud him. If Ren is Han and Leias son, how would this affect him? My guess is this: We see Ren for alot of the movie struggle in some private moments between being the badass frontman for the First Order and the fact that he is Han and Leia's son. Then in the end he is faced with a moment not unlike when Vader made the choice to save Luke only Ren, who considered this a moment of weakness, makes the opposite choice and kills Han. It could be an awesome moment. Ren throughout the movie is shown as a somewhat sympathetic villain who maybe isn't completely evil. Then at the end of the movie when he has a chance to turn good and make up for the wrong he has done, he makes the opposite choice and kills his father which is the final piece in him truly becoming irrevocably evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Krawlie Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 I think you've read a lot of spoiler sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted August 26, 2015 Author Share Posted August 26, 2015 Well I think the only thing that's really a spoiler is if Han is killed. The rest of what I said has mainly been confirmed by JJ, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryn Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 How much of the story do you think is driven by Kennedy's "Who is Luke Skywalker?" Depending on how much, if at all, is publically known about the events in the Emperor's throne room, Luke's relationship with his father could be the weakness of the Vader idolation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mara Jade Skywalker Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 (YEAH, I KNOW THIS IS EU, WHO CARES.) In the Thrawn Trilogy, it wasn't publicly known that Vader was Luke and Leia's father. The galaxy becoming aware of their parentage was never really explored in the old EU, and was a huge missed opportunity in my opinion. In one story, nobody knows, and then in the next, everyone does. I like the idea of Kylo Ren not knowing about Vader being Anakin Skywalker. In the EU (YEAH, I KNOW), Mara Jade began doubting the Emperor once she found out Vader was Luke's father. That knowledge completely changed her way of thinking. It would be very interesting to see a similar situation happen with Kylo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerimar Nyliram Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Don't apologize for the EU, Mara; wear that badge proudly. I also noticed that that particular story was missing, and I think it would still be interesting to find out how the news comes out, and the ramifications for Luke and his new Jedi Order, and Leia and her political career.As for Kylo Ren, yeah, no opinions here. Don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavonis Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 What if Kylo Ren is just a Vader fanboy? No relation - not a Solo or Skywalker - just an admirer seeking to emulate him? Maybe all Kylo (not Ren, because if that is the name of the order he joined, then it'd be like calling Luke "Jedi" all the time) knows is that Vader was the kickass right-hand of the Emperor, both of whom were killed by some punk farmboy from some nowhere dustball. Maybe the events aren't even that clear! Perhaps it's just known that Vader was killed at the Battle of Endor and Kylo knows nothing else. In universe, I am skeptical that the general populace of the galaxy far,far away is going to learn the precise details of what went down in the Emperor's throne room on the Death Star. Events are rarely conveyed so perfectly as news spreads. Decades after the fact, I doubt the story is well known. It's probably been twisted by propaganda and inflated with time like a tall tale. Maybe it's muddled in the memories of everyone ("Ewoks broke into the bunker and stoned Vader to death!"). Just think - who knows exactly what transpired in Hitler's bunker just before his death? Historians do for the most part, but ask the general populace today, and they'll have no clue. You might even run into someone who thinks Hitler didn't die there at all, just disappeared into Argentina. Maybe Kylo hopes that Vader is alive somewhere in the galaxy! Maybe half the population thinks Kylo is Vader! From a story-telling perspective, there must be a character or characters who do not know what happened at Endor, just so that they can be told what happened briefly, and then learn what happened in the decades since (in broad sweeps) for the audience's sake. How much exposition will be stuffed into TFA? How well will it be done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted August 26, 2015 Author Share Posted August 26, 2015 The story would be alot more powerful for Kylo Ren if he is the son of Han and Leia and if he does have feelings towards them and if he is torn between his family and The First Order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Not necessarily. Obi-Wan's death was way more powerful in ANH than the death of Owen and Beru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowDog Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Good point. Its about whether or not you connect with the actor and the character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted August 26, 2015 Author Share Posted August 26, 2015 It's not that he HAS to be related or anything. You are missing the point. If as someone else suggested Ren is just a Vader "fan boy" who doesn't know that in the end Vader saved Luke? Then he is just a bad guy trying to be like Vader. Now say he is Vader's grandson who loves Vader, knows what he did on DSII and considers that a weakness. However he can;t help having similar sentimental feelings throughout the movie about his own family. Say Snoke once or twice during the movie senses these feelings and says soemthing along the lines of "we can;t make the same mistake as Vader...". Ren assures Snoke that he won't but as an audience we see him struggling with this. Then at the end he is presented with a situation where he can save his father or kill him. We don't know which way he is going to go, then bam he kills him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 I can name a few (dozen) movie villains that were compelling and even emotionally resonate whilst managing not to be related to the hero of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted August 26, 2015 Author Share Posted August 26, 2015 You guys are funny. I never said he had to be related. I didn;t say "if hes not related, then there is now way this can work." All I did was put forth one possible scenerio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 You said that it would be more powerful, I pointed out that quite possibly the only emotionally powerful death in the entire saga involved a non-relative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I would prefer it if he's not related. Frankly I think it's stupid that Luke and Leia are related. It was clearly tacked on in ROTJ just for the hell of it and came across as a lame soap opera plot device. I'm totally cool with him having some connection to Vader, though, whether him just being a fanboy or something else we haven't thought of yet. Maybe life in this modern time sucks and he feels like the Galaxy would be better off if Vader had lived, or maybe he wants to be a Jedi-Sith tweener who thinks he can have the best of both worlds by mixing the two. Afterall, the Jedi were just as much a part of the problem as the Sith were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Krawlie Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I don't really have an opinion on if I think he should or shouldn't be related, but I have no doubt either he and/or Rey definitely is. Star Wars has always been about family, and it's more fantasy than sci fi, so I don't have THAT much an issue with the galaxy revolving around one family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavonis Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I hypothesize that Abrams is seeking to avoid "small galaxy syndrome". For example, if the plot of TFA requires a desert planet setting, he could've used Tatooine as easily as Jakku. Planets are big; Rey and Finn could've run into each other in some other location on Tatooine, or even in the same old cantina in Mos Eisley, but they don't. That's a choice. By introducing a new planet, Abrams is saying there's more to the galaxy location-wise than just Tatooine, Hoth, and Endor. I think he's implying there's more to it family-wise, too. Maybe all the characters are related before the plot begins, and that'd be fine, but I'd guess that these characters are unrelated and perhaps unknown to each other initially and become emotionally entangled after the plot starts. Abrams is doing his best to make TFA the most Star Wars-like installment since 1977. To do that, he may end up emulating plot points and emotional beats from ANH throughout this film, and since everything was new in that film, why not visit new places and introduce new characters that aren't just the children of the previous generation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Mmm I doubt Kylo is related to any Skywalker or Solo simply because he doesn't look anything like Harrison Ford, or Carrie Fisher or Mark Hamil in anyway. I just don't see a physical resemblance even slightly, that could suggest he is genetically linked to them. That said it's an interesting theory. His connection/relationship towards Vader/the idea of Vader is super interesting though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mara Jade Skywalker Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 If none of the new Big Three are SkySolos, why make it Episode VII? We have the standalone movies for that. Also, Abrams wouldn't use "the Force is strong in my family" monologue without good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Krawlie Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I hypothesize that Abrams is seeking to avoid "small galaxy syndrome". For example, if the plot of TFA requires a desert planet setting, he could've used Tatooine as easily as Jakku. Planets are big; Rey and Finn could've run into each other in some other location on Tatooine, or even in the same old cantina in Mos Eisley, but they don't. That's a choice. By introducing a new planet, Abrams is saying there's more to the galaxy location-wise than just Tatooine, Hoth, and Endor. I think he's implying there's more to it family-wise, too. Maybe all the characters are related before the plot begins, and that'd be fine, but I'd guess that these characters are unrelated and perhaps unknown to each other initially and become emotionally entangled after the plot starts. Abrams is doing his best to make TFA the most Star Wars-like installment since 1977. To do that, he may end up emulating plot points and emotional beats from ANH throughout this film, and since everything was new in that film, why not visit new places and introduce new characters that aren't just the children of the previous generation? This also wouldn't surprise me and I'd have no complaints here either. I think I'm firmly set in the "as long as it's good" section, I'll be happy with almost anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 If none of the new Big Three are SkySolos, why make it Episode VII? We have the standalone movies for that. Also, Abrams wouldn't use "the Force is strong in my family" monologue without good reason. I didn't say none of the big 3. Just Adam Driver. I mean, you're probably right and he probably is a direct biological descendant.. He just doesn't look like a family member biologically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mara Jade Skywalker Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 If none of the new Big Three are SkySolos, why make it Episode VII? We have the standalone movies for that. Also, Abrams wouldn't use "the Force is strong in my family" monologue without good reason. I didn't say none of the big 3. Just Adam Driver. I mean, you're probably right and he probably is a direct biological descendant.. He just doesn't look like a family member biologically. Ah, gotcha. I honestly have no strong feelings about Kylo being related to Luke or Leia. Although I wouldn't be shocked if Kylo or Rey are cousins. Remember, genetics are fun! And Kylo could always be adopted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Yeah, I do love the family story/continuation.. But part of me is like- if another Skywalker turns darkside they're pretty much the weakest willed good guys in the gallaxy. I'd certainly be thinking twice before getting into any alliance with a Skywalker male in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowDog Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 That's not fair. So far only one Skywalker of 3 turned to the dark side. One of 4 if you count Annie's mom. If a kid turns even if they're only only child that's 2 of 5. And if they're not the odds are even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Yeah I guess so. I'm kinda just being devils advocate here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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